Occupy vancouver

[glenn]

Stop feeding that bear that is rampaging through the village and destroying everything. Stop supporting multi-national corporations and seek out local and community based industries. Change from a bank to a credit union. Meet farmers at farmer’s markets. Stop eating fast food. Content over gadgets. Support local manufacturers and artisans as much as you can. The more we support a manufacturing middle class, the stronger we all become. A strong middle class is a strong democracy. Walk a lot. Spend more, consume less, and save the planet. It’s really very simple. Stop whining about how expensive it is to do the right thing and just start living as if everything is finite.
glenn

[jessef]

Brad, that is not a nice thing to say. Regardless of a person's state in life, there is no need to shun them.

Falco, people whining about how they can't live on minimum wage compared to 20 years ago are lacking something critical - a good moral and ethical upbringing.

We as canadians have endless life, education and career choices each of us can make. People take that for granted. If you want to work for minimum wage and expect your way of life you had 10 years ago to be the same now, move out of vancouver to a small town that can accommodate that lifestyle. People have choices. A lot of choices.

Ari, the list of demands is not media-forced but tied into the occupy movement from the top in their site: Good points and far fetched points, but it's still too vague. We need more specifics and a core group of people to tailor and point this to a realistic goal.

http://www.occupyvancouver.com/index.php?page=1

The stuff that you and I are referring to 'going on in the background' does not need a physical tent city in the major canadian and US towns.

I have been at occupy vancouver since day one on site and not getting my info through the media.

Most, not all, but most people there are hippies enjoying the ride. There's a place to stay, lots of attention that people are enjoying, good tunes, food at every corner including a soul kitchen and free wifi and power.

It's the perfect place for anyone to hang out 24/7. I'm envious but I can't afford to be because I'm working 9-5. It's my choice to work instead of quitting my job and relying on the government. Simple as that.

I have been asking and talking and speaking 4-5 days a week since it's inception. The physical protest is the one I'm expressing my disappointment with at the art center downtown. It's embarrassing when you have a knowledgeable activist speaking with clear articulation and professional poise into 5 media camera's and behind him, most of the occupy tent camp are making childish faces, mooning the camera's and yelling/chanting so that half the conversation and speech can't be heard.

The forum/websites working in the background are creating more intellectual and genuine solutions.

When asking the question, what are the collective core values that occupy vancouver are promoting, I get 20 different responses within the same tent group. Over the last few weeks, I'm having a hard time getting a group-thought answer. There is no resounding - we agree on .. or we would like .. most people I speak to say "I want .. or I will ...." It's really turned into a me-me thing down there.

Part of the occupy movement is amazing and the other half is an embarrassment to an established society.

The tent camps are not the pivotal point that will topple the government or restore financial order in the world. They are just a cool thing to do, be a part of and for some a temporary home.

We have internet, freedom of speech and the luxury of instant global communication without media and government bias. <<< THIS is what will make or break the occupy movement. Not the tent camps or protests.

To get a core structure off the ground shit needs to happen and the tent campouts are not the things pushing the occupy agenda forward. The media is having a field day with the tent city at the expense of some of the recent unfortunate incidents. You guys know how media gobbles up this stuff. The tent has to go or has to be kept in a better state so not to attract unneeded media attention that goes against the main movement.

[after oil]

you make some great points jesse

[glenn]

We as canadians have endless life, education and career choices each of us can make. People take that for granted. If you want to work for minimum wage and expect your way of life you had 10 years ago to be the same now, move out of vancouver to a small town that can accommodate that lifestyle. People have choices. A lot of choices.

your missing the whole point - the standard of living we have been enjoying is eroding, and not just in Vancouver. The widening income gap is a statistical reality. The middle class in North America has been in decline since the 1950's - and it's not because of our "choices" You sound like Herman Cain.

Let me ask you this, as a member of the global elite (1st world) do you give a rat's ass about who made the crap you consume? How about that chocolate bar you had at Halloween - do you care that the coco was harvested by a child? When you look at the global picture, you are the 1 percent (we all are).

And excuse me, but I expect my quality of life to be better than it was 10 years ago. Why should it be eroding? Sounds to me like you have been buying the bull about "the times". About how we should all be consider ourselves lucky that we are not worse off - meanwhile there are people that spend 2 million dollars on a car, or own 30 000 square foot homes.

I agree that all the whining and protesting is anemic, and that the old rich white guys laugh at it. I know this is grim, but the rich guys are arming the lifeboat, and if we don't take responsibility for our personal actions soon, there will be a massive die-off as the current geo economic system runs it's course.

Seriously, grim though it is, people who are smarter and more informed than me are scared. It's time for all of us to start making changes.

[jessef]

if we don't take responsibility for our personal actions soon, there will be a massive die-off as the current geo economic system runs it's course.

Seriously, grim though it is, people who are smarter and more informed than me are scared. It's time for all of us to start making changes.

Which is what is happening.

This whole occupy isn't a bright light that all of sudden people woke up and took notice. Changes, standard of living, choices, etc... are all issues that people should be aware of. It's in constant flux. Population growth is the crux of the problem. Too many people in one area that is not sustainable. More of the same areas flourish and then the big three corps slowly took it all over.

Here in Canada, we still have the choice of what to read, where to go to school, what to eat and unbound thought and expression. Many people that insist they are fully into the occupy movement I don't believe truly understand and appreciate what we have here.

The way of life is not depreciating. Sure, inflation sucks and you can't buy a dollar's worth in a store like you did 20 years ago. It's the masses of people that want an immediate lifestyle fix at the expense of their health who are the most vocal to complain but when it comes down to it, do not change theirs ways. But again, it is a choice.

We as individuals have enough resources to choose the lifestyle we want. A person's lifestyle, unless handed down to them, is their own choice. Personal motivation, intellect and part luck are what defines the route we can take.

If you choose to eat fast food, gobble down hershey's chocolate and drink a can of coke everyday, that's your choice. Just like it's your choice if you choose to eat locally grown raw veg and a real healthy cow that eats grass and not modified corn.

There is not enough farmer's markets to sustain the local populace. With that said, there is not shortage of organic and locally grown food. Why is that? Because many people are lazy to buy real carrots that needs to have the tops cut off, dirt cleaned off, pealed and cooked. So they buy modified baby carrots in a zip lock bag from a major corp. Lazy lazy lazy. Cooking is fun. The smell of fresh veg is probably foreign to many

As for your personal comments, I do give a rat's ass of what goes in my body. As much local and farmer's market goods as I can consume.
I didn't have any chocolate bars at halloween. I had pasteries from our corner shop that are made on the spot and feel more filling.
I choose what I eat and other people have choices of that they can eat and where they can live. I choose to bike to work and drive on as less diesel as possible and run on recycled oil as an alternative.

I'm not an exception, far from it. There is a large amount of our population that is educated, self reliant and motivated to continue a healthy way of life not just now but for future generations.

Middle class has been shrinking. That's a given.

You missed my point which close to your point.

Herman Cain ? Come on !

[Elbrad]

The way of life is not depreciating. Sure, inflation sucks and you can't buy a dollar's worth in a store like you did 20 years ago. It's the masses of people that want an immediate lifestyle fix at the expense of their health who are the most vocal to complain but when it comes down to it, do not change theirs ways. But again, it is a choice.

I'm mostly a lurker, a guy who searches for tips and tricks and doesn't post too terribly much, but I couldn't let this false statement stand.

Our way of life is depreciating...it has been since the 50's. We can no longer sustain a family on a single income, and are therefore forced to farm our kids out to daycare centres. It's not entirely a matter of "keeping up with the Joneses", but rather a case of wages not keeping up with inflation.

Add to this the fact that the oft-quoted "1%" has been getting substantially richer while the lower and middle-class people who build their empire suffer, and you can see why the frustration exists.

Personally, I don't think the Occupy movement is going to accomplish anything. I support the ideals of Occupy, but it's a lot like a child holding his or her breath. Mom & Dad know that the child will either breathe on their own, or the child will pass out and begin breathing again. All they have to do is wait.

What we need is one of two things. Either we elect a leader who is willing to make the right changes (abolish Parliament, introduce a flat tax system, trim the political fat...etc), or we have a French-Revolution style revolt. Either way...that's the only thing that will make a difference. Tents and drum circles have never changed the world...but it's a good way to start getting the message out. The amount of media coverage proves that.

[glenn]

Ok, So the Hermain Cain comment was a bit much - but I know that you have a thick skin.

You and I agree on most things regarding this movement. I know that you care about a lot of the same things I do. Time will tell if the occupy protest turns into something more, but the point is that people are waking up to the fact that we don't have to just shut up and accept the current global economic regime.

I totally don't agree with your comments here though, or else I don't really understand your point:

The way of life is not depreciating. Sure, inflation sucks and you can't buy a dollar's worth in a store like you did 20 years ago. It's the masses of people that want an immediate lifestyle fix at the expense of their health who are the most vocal to complain but when it comes down to it, do not change theirs ways. But again, it is a choice.
We as individuals have enough resources to choose the lifestyle we want. A person's lifestyle, unless handed down to them, is their own choice. Personal motivation, intellect and part luck are what defines the route we can take.

Elbrad hit the nail on the head - how many single income families do you know? My wife is a high school teacher. Those on the right see her as lazy and overpaid. But the fact is we cannot support our family off her income. We only have one vehicle, she rides her bike to work, we live in a modest middle class neighborhood, etc. But still we struggle to make ends meet. How can you say that our way of life is not depreciating?

I think a big part of it is the disappearance of the middle class manufacturing sector in North America. Globalization is the big evil here. How can we compete with workers that make $2 a day, or forced labour. As someone who tries to earn a living with my hands, I have trouble making minimum wage because most people have lost sight of the true value of things.

But I do see hope. More and more people are starting to wake up to the fact that when you spend money locally, the money stays in the local economy. You spend more, but we all get more. I hope for a grass roots economic reform, not a top down political change.

[jessef]

But I do see hope. More and more people are starting to wake up to the fact that when you spend money locally, the money stays in the local economy. You spend more, but we all get more. I hope for a grass roots economic reform, not a top down political change.

Agreed.

[Firesong]

Just a question

How many here complaining about expenses own:
big tv, more than one tv in the house?
cable for their tv
eat out weekly
more than one computer/laptop/ipad/etc?
then things aren't that tough.

I think people forget or haven't learned yet that
no one said life was fair. If someone told you that then
they lied or simply didn't know any better. It's not a RIGHT.

If you can't afford the big city move. If you like it there then
don't complain about the money you make which doesn't go that far.

If you want to slam me about this then think
a little harder.. do you take your health for granted, your family,
your mental well being?

You aren't near being in the poor and unfortunate group.
Go live in a country that doesn't provide health care or running water.

Regarding the tent village in Saskatoon I fear not for the 'protesters' but
for the poor homeless people that are going to be short a warm place to sit,
place to get food and stay safe.

We here in the midst of a political election, I hope that everyone gets out and
votes. Abstain and you have no right to complain.

FS

[drrod]

it has been since the 50's. We can no longer sustain a family on a single income, and are therefore forced to farm our kids out to daycare centres. It's not entirely a matter of "keeping up with the Joneses", but rather a case of wages not keeping up with inflation.

At the risk of being labelled an "old fogie" and part of the elitist 1%, I would like to comment on the above.

We raised our family in the 80's and 90's on one income. How? well, several ways:
- very modest house that we could afford. A long way from what is considered a "starter home" now.
- got rid of long term debt ASAP and did not have any short term debt. ie. lived within our means
- no "toys", no winter vacations to Hawaii, etc.
I could go on, but I think you get my point. We did without non essentials.

I should also mention that I put myself through 9 years of post secondary education via student loans, holiday work (yes I worked on weekends, Xmas holidays, etc) and my wife's wage which was barely more than minimum wage.

We were in our 40's before we had any holiday that was more than a camping trip. Our choice. Did we consider ourselves part of the downtrodden. Not for a minute. We made short term choices that impacted our long term outcomes.

End result is that now we live very comfortably and our 3 kids have all been educated with little or no debt incurred and they do not have the "entitlement attitude" that is so pervasive today.

So the occupiers want change. Well, let them lead by example. Get involved in making the changes happen from within (ie. all politics is local). Don't expect people to bend to your demands just because you demand it. Show that you have credibility. A good place to start would be to do without a $500 smart phone and its accompanied $100/month plan when you are claiming being hard done to and do not deface public poperty (eg. parks).

Don't get me wrong. I think there is lots of things that need changing within our system and I work at changing them in my own way (ie engage polliticians).

One thing I do know is that, to my knowledge, there has never been a society, or civilization, that survived and thrived unless it rewarded hard work and initiative.

Sorry for the rant. I'll go back under my rock now.

Rod

[FalcoColumbarius]

[Golf Cart]

it has been since the 50's. We can no longer sustain a family on a single income, and are therefore forced to farm our kids out to daycare centres. It's not entirely a matter of "keeping up with the Joneses", but rather a case of wages not keeping up with inflation.

At the risk of being labelled an "old fogie" and part of the elitist 1%, I would like to comment on the above.

We raised our family in the 80's and 90's on one income. How? well, several ways:
- very modest house that we could afford. A long way from what is considered a "starter home" now.
- got rid of long term debt ASAP and did not have any short term debt. ie. lived within our means
- no "toys", no winter vacations to Hawaii, etc.
I could go on, but I think you get my point. We did without non essentials.

I should also mention that I put myself through 9 years of post secondary education via student loans, holiday work (yes I worked on weekends, Xmas holidays, etc) and my wife's wage which was barely more than minimum wage.

We were in our 40's before we had any holiday that was more than a camping trip. Our choice. Did we consider ourselves part of the downtrodden. Not for a minute. We made short term choices that impacted our long term outcomes.

End result is that now we live very comfortably and our 3 kids have all been educated with little or no debt incurred and they do not have the "entitlement attitude" that is so pervasive today.

So the occupiers want change. Well, let them lead by example. Get involved in making the changes happen from within (ie. all politics is local). Don't expect people to bend to your demands just because you demand it. Show that you have credibility. A good place to start would be to do without a $500 smart phone and its accompanied $100/month plan when you are claiming being hard done to and do not deface public poperty (eg. parks).

Don't get me wrong. I think there is lots of things that need changing within our system and I work at changing them in my own way (ie engage polliticians).

One thing I do know is that, to my knowledge, there has never been a society, or civilization, that survived and thrived unless it rewarded hard work and initiative.

Sorry for the rant. I'll go back under my rock now.

Rod

X2

[glenn]

drrod - exactly! Times have changed dramatically since the 80s and 90s - that's the point.

I could basically substitute everything you said with my own story. One tv, one car, camping vacations, no "toys" etc, etc. My wife and I both work very hard, and we live a very modest life. Yet, my situation is very different from what your's was. A lot has changed in the last 20 years.

There is a very real statistical decline in the middle class, with increasing concentration of wealth at the top. You can't attribute that all to the laziness of my generation. For example, if Christy Walton (from the family behind walmart) alone gave up just one-eighth of her wealth, she could fund a wage increase to pull all walmart employees out of poverty by herself. Does that seem fair to you?

[jessef]

My parents escaped a communist country in the 70's, left their entire generation families and uprooted their lives so that we (my sister and I) could have what they never did. Freedom of choice, speech and way of life. They came here with literally no money, food or clothes. During the day, my dad worked for $2 and hour for 5 years while my mom looked after us and in the evenings, my dad studied english while my mom went to school. They survived on less than minimum wage while raising two children. It wasn't until my teens that we started having regular western-society summers. I never considered my childhood to be any different had our family been more wealthy. Reiterating above sentiments on standard of living, it is a choice and not forcefully crammed down your throat.

The people that were brought up to truly realize what $1 is worth, what it takes to earn it and what it can buy you both then and now are the people that do not sit idly by and wait for 'change' to happen. These are the % of people that do not fit in the 99% or 1% as they do not look down on the claimed 99% and do not look up to the claimed 1%. They are the one's that are actively involved in local politics, environmental groups, charity/homeless organizations, hospitals and neighbourhood watches,etc... People that care about more than just themselves and are not addicted to immediate material and carnal satisfaction.

There are some of these types of people in occupy vancouver but they are overshadowed by the majority that fall into the me-me group above.

If I made minimum wage today, I would be able to support my family but not according to what is the norm these days. That is a choice as well.

It's all about balance, choice and both immediate/long-term affects.

Most people either don't realize that or are ignorant enough to think it does not apply to them.

Life isn't fair. Since the dawn of human civilization as we can remember, there has always been a class structure in society. Without the classes, those societies did not last because we are not equal. Every person has different thoughts, morals, ethics, skills and degrees of life motivation. Because of that, there will never be a society where everyone makes the same cash, owns the same material things and performs the same jobs.

The idea behind the occupy movement is a genuine one, but it's not enough to tilt the table in favor of the majority middle working class away from the upper 1% class.

[drrod]

There is a very real statistical decline in the middle class, with increasing concentration of wealth at the top. You can't attribute that all to the laziness of my generation

Glenn,
If you read my post closely, you will see that I do not disagree that there needs to be changes . There always has been since the dawn of time and there always will be. Different degrees of urgency and degree but a need nevertheless. How the changes are made generally foretell how good the changes are and how long lasting they will be. Those made on the basis of coercion tend to eventually have a negative effect on the society (eg. Russia-1917 - although not saying that the Romanov's were the way to go either).

What is historical fact is if you give somebody something, it is not utilized or held is the same regard as if they earned it. Simply redistributing wealth is a short term solution to a long term problem. This line of thinking is especially prominent in politicians that only see as far as the next election and shareholders that only care about quarterly reports.

You may disagree with me, but here in Canada, the opportunitiesto better one's self, while not necessarily fully equal, are certainly better than in most other countries. It is the individual's decison to take atvantage of them or not.

BTW - I am not so old that I am not fully cognizant of how things are and how the last 10-15 yrs is different than the 80's and 90's. I just choose to pressure for changes in a way that has historically been the way to go. ie. work and influence the system from within. Like I said, alll politics is local. If all people do is complain, yet do not get involved (and I don't mean parading around with placards and chanting), really have little ground to stand on.

A forum and a computer are hardly the best venue for discussions like this. Not unlike a tent in the middle of a park. Hopefully, in the near future, we can continue this over a meal and a beer.

Rod