Occupy vancouver

[jessef]

opinions ...

I went on the first day and every lunch hour for the last 3 weeks to see any developments.

My observations.

day 1. Some excellent speakers with clear, conscious directives and goals. Assumption of about 1/2 'real' protesters and 1/2 'professional protesters'.

Professional protesters are people that either get paid or receive some form of reimbursement for 'protesting' in a certain direction.

1st week. everyone seemed to gung ho spirits with moving forward but the biggest hurdle is that there is no specific collective agreement, just people from all walks of life speaking openly (which is a great thing to see).

after 1st week to yseterday. The people numbers from the first day/week has changed. It's recently more like 3/4 'professional protesters' and 1/4 hippy/homeless 'protesters' with a small 1% of genuine thinkers/doers.

I am disappointed that the handful of environmental/judiciary community leaders could not overcome the professional protesters and stay on course to a collective goal that can actually facilitate any real change that they want.

It appears that the other occupy's are in the same boat.

In the 60-70's with the women's rights/anti-war/racism movements, there was focused changes/goals that were realistically obtained by people integrating themselves into the government and areas where change can be facilitated, not just by hanging around in a tent, sleeping till noon and repeating what someone else is saying.

There are a lot of followers and not enough thinkers in that current occupy camp.

I'm not anti-occupy as I've been there almost everyday since it's conception, but boy is it a gongshow when it comes to their collective expectations combined with what the majority are not willing to do (get in and work from the inside out).

[solanoid]

Good post,

I agree, my personal opinion is that the OWS movement has been railroaded by the very people they are opposed to. I went to the OWS in Edmonton, and the guy talking was an EMBARASSMENT! He was swearing on stage, and made a couple of sexual jokes regarding hookers. I felt as though he was intentionally put there to discredid the OWS.

Better than nothing I suppose, it has to start somewhere.

[jessef]

The noticeable difference I am seeing between this and similar nationwide protests in the 60/70's (near my entrance in this planet), is that people today for the most part are lazy and crave immediate, unrealistic changes with no inclination to pursue it themselves. Rather to voice something other people are voicing and to watch others do the true pursuing. Writing to local politicians, town mayor, involved ministries is one way to do things systematically. I joined in on a few petitions that were sent to the government ministries. Aside from that, getting into politics and the banking system is a requirement to force any type of change. This not-sure-what-we-want-protesting is not working.

They drink starbucks and are playing with their smartphones and laptops. If that's not a catch-22, I don't know what is.

I'm all for protesting something you believe is right/wrong but the way it's done today is absurd.

If not for social online media (facebook/twitter/cnn), this so-called occupy would have fizzled in the beginning.

The one great positive in all of this is that it is bringing many people together from around the world and even if it's not organized, the coverage is sensational from a media perspective.

[TardisDeli]

The lack of FOCUS is a problem.

With no defined goal, the group breaks down into loose cannons each seeking their 15 seconds of fame, then reasoned speakers get lost in the rabble. It is no longer a protest, just disparate individuals camping out in public spaces.

When we created organized changes in olden days, we succeeded (you are welcome) after consensus to focus on ONE priority item. Other items were dealt with in turn AFTER the first one resolved.

Christine-ism: If people cannot agree on THE problem, then people cannot create THE solution.

Christine.

[jessef]

paradox - occupy wall street is applying for a corporate trademark protesting corporations using trademarks. hmmm...

In an application dated October 24, the unincorporated association "Occupy Wall Street" applied for the trademark to "Occupy Wall Street." The trademark application says the group would like to use the phrase on merchandise such as clothing and bags, in periodicals and newsletters, and on a website featuring "photographic, audio, video and prose presentations" about the Occupy movement.

[Profister]

The reason why the organizers are not focused is because they do not understand what is going on. They do not see the whole picture; they see fragments only.
This thread might turn into another 'cafe' as the topic is endless. The roots of the current crisis are going 3,500 years back to the ancient Egypt where priests has managed to hide the real knowledge from the rest of people including pharaons. The educational system was only partial since and is 'kaleidoscopic'. The best resource to learn about how this setup has been implemented is in Russian unfortunately. It was presented by General Konstantin Petrov, the author of The General Theory of Management which describes how the mankind is being managed by a small group of smart greedy asses. Very educational in terms of understanding what is really going on on our planet (and also to see that we are getting closer to the dead end). The intro has been translated though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-5DOCF4vFw. I have all 30 hrs of his lectures but they are in Russian only. I wish the organizers of The Occupy Movement were familiar with the basics. Here is somewhat related and well presented by an ex-spy John Coleman info: http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid= ... 4143019768

[kb&2dogs]

I get the bus downtown to work most days, and I have seen the Occupy Victoria camp morph in the weeks since it started. I have a few observations....

I don't see any clear message in the group, nor do I read of any concensus of what the issues are, or what they expect.

The Occupy Victoria is interesting in that we have an anti-camping bylaw to stop the homeless people from camping in Victoria parks, and yet the Occupy people are being left in a Victoria park (Centennial Square) without anyone doing anything about it. Recently there has been some talk about having SOME of them move, the city is planning an outdoor skating rink for the holidays, as well as put up the Christmas decorations, and it would be basically in the middle of the "camp". So would you take your kids downtown on any evening to go iceskating in the middle of a protest camp? I don't think so...

I have no problem with people being allowed to convey their message, but I'm not hearing any distinct message here, and suspect there are lots of folks "protesting" who are just taking the opportunity to flaunt the anti-camping bylaw.

A number of years ago there was a "protest camp" on the lawns of the legistlature, originally it was to protest high university fees, but within a few days most of the students left (guess they had classes), and the homeless moved in. They had some pretty impressive tents for homeless people (and as a camper I recognize a good tent), they set up kitchen facilities, and even went so far as to dig vegetable gardens and latrine pits ON THE LEGISLATURE LAWNS!

At the beginning of the protest, I pretty much said "good for them, they have a message and they are doing what they can to be heard", by the time the police and city came in and took the camp down a few weeks later, my attitude was absolutely "it's about bloody time", and "who pays to clean up this mess?" Guess who pays?? Anyone who works and pays taxes.... Harrumph!!

[TardisDeli]

I just listened with fascination to the link mentioned by Profister, thanks for posting it. John Coleman's entire 1hour45 speech is powerful (his speech starts after the 4 minute introduction), and his untangling of the past century of world history is amazing. Highly recommended. Regards, Christine.

[jessef]

Thanks for the link Mr.P

email sent regarding your Russian versions. Maryna would love them.

[Profister]

I am glad to see thinking people here.
No problem Jesse; 8 GB is all it takes.

[after oil]

regarding the use of smart phones, macbooks, etc: why should we not use the technology of the machine to dismantle the machine? true, the movement would have fizzled without facebook and twitter, so we MUST use the technology. offer me a made in canada recyclable poison free computer and ill buy it instead. the corporation shuts down anybody trying to do something like this by buying them out. the marley family (House of Marley) is making electronics with wood and recycled plastic now, hopefully they'll inspire others to follow suit.

we are not engaging the usual channels of political change because they are slow, patriarchal, and antidemocratic (41% is not a majority) this is so much bigger than what you might discover at a camp, people are working at home and at community centres etc to affect this change. a crew of community radio activists from powell river, including myself, have been covering Occupy Vancouver and the movement in general. its part and parcel with the occupiers themselves.

the protests of the 60s/70s did very little to change things in NA. The civil rights protests lifted the veil that obscured the inherent systemic racism of the south, but i argue that movement, and suffrage, have really done very little to change attitudes.

show me one tiny shred of proof that there is a single "professional protester" and do not confuse life long activists with professional protesters

its difficult to agree on one problem. one problem for white men will be very different for indigenous women, for example. the working groups of the movement are occupying their time creating dialogue and imagining solutions for many problems.

give us a chance, we require a paradigm shift to disengage this system of greed and unsustainable growth. it might take 10 years or more, but we are using our imagination, something the current system discourages.

today is the last day of my 30's so im running out of time to be trusted still :P

[konadog]

Spot on after oil

[mararmeisto]

Usually, the most successful change can be brought about not by forcing/demanding change of others, but by living it oneself.

[jessef]

give us a chance, we require a paradigm shift to disengage this system of greed and unsustainable growth. it might take 10 years or more, but we are using our imagination, something the current system discourages.

Believe me, we (the 99%) meaning everyone, are on the same page.

To make a large shift in this system of greed and unsustainable growth which has been rising since humans existed won't happen in a decade of a few decades just by camping out and protesting.

Some type of focal point or order needs to be established. There is a good draft of demands that is being discussed here :
http://memebee.com/occupyvancouver/view ... 4ff77a8023

There are some valid points about sustainability which I support down to my core.

There are also some far fetched points that really goes against this entire movement.

It's too broad and lacks the clarity and focus required to make a realistic shift. Poses the ongoing question. Who will do this ? Or which group of people. In which province, state or country. Will the list of demands vary from one country to another or will there be a core set of demands that span across the globe.

One last thing.

If I could, I would be there with my family 24/7. I cannot for the sole reason of survival and a healthy moral upbringing.

Survival for me is evident that if I quit my job, I would not be able to put food on the table or shelter us. I would be able to buy a tent and we can survive for maybe a year with our savings.

Morality for me is that I try my damned best to not succumb to having the government sustain my living or way of life. If I would be protesting 24/7 with a free place to live, eat, sleep and have a support structure in place if I need food, shelter or medical attention, then by my own definition, I would be leeching off those whom I oppose. I choose to work to avoid this. This enables me to survive in Vancouver and take the free time I have to do as I please, including going to the occupy site on a daily basis.

In my opinion, the protests should be on the steps of the parliament. It is a much more forgiving area to protest and setup camp for the long haul then downtown vancouver. There have been lengthy protests in the past where people even planted veggie gardens on the lawn! I hope this movement will not loose steam and over the years, the demands will be more realistic in our society and slowly trickle upwards to make the changes happen.

I'm heading back there now again to chat some more.

[sigurross]

I walked past the protest in Victoria last week and I think all credibility was lost when I saw a big "Chemtrails" banner. Not that I discredit the existence of chemtrails (that is a whole other discussion) but for the scope of the protest I thought it was highly inappropriate and took away for the actual purpose of the protest.

I find this frustrating because I would really like to see a protest like this to gain some momentum and yield some positive change. But without proper leadership and clearly defined objectives and goals it is just a waste of time.

As an onlooker like myself walking by, seeing that chemtrails banner really made me realize that there was no focus there was no consensus as to what everybody had gathered for.

Although, either way, I'm glad to see people out there doing something. Would just love to see it evolve to something that people could take seriously.

Anyway, that is my two cents.

- Jason