Attention!! WVO Is it SAFE??

[after oil]

That filler looks nice, and pretty straightforward, really. Thanks for the info on the paint. I wonder if the "paint" was actually some black algae that loosened up from the tank walls once running the WVO....that happens all the time when you use the original tank for veg, we expect it when we do a single tank Mercedes, for example.

ooohh something i should know? im working on a dual tank '78 240D...

[delicat]

Now that we have interest on this tread, I thought of bringing another potential issue with wvo and hope that we can share on.

While on the hwy at anywhere between 90-100 km/h, I noticed that if I have a slight incline or stronger head wind my EGT (taken from pyro) is higher on wvo than diesel. Nothing to do with glow plugs but could possibly cause problems on the long run if we don't pay attention to it.

My thoughts are that wvo has a little less power than diesel and has to work harder to achieve the same speed. On a few climbs I end up swithching back to diesel to bring the temperature down by maybe 100-150F or so. I can expand more with details or actual numbers if someone cares but for now, just saying I was surprised to see our van regularly being at 10 psi boost at hwy speed and close to 1000F (probe on downpipe so really 1200F) when small inclines, again at hwy speed. Usually at 100km/h around town I'm between 650-850F but it's on extended run that the numbers climb.

Just glad I've got the pyro 'cause the temp gauge is steady and wouldn't warn me to slow down...

[AndrewH]

Well, lots of discussion on this one!

1) Glow plugs can lose tips. Nothing to do with WVO. Use good glow plugs. Best are Bosch Duraterm. We need a source for the right ones for Delicas, in Canada, if anyone wants to work on that. So far they are not available here. Some enterprising person could obtain them and supply them to the Delica community.

I would have to disagree. True the glow plugs can loose the tips but we are talking an large amount of build-up on the plugs and then not being able to remove them out of THE small threaded hole in the head. The plug then sheers at the neck so you will have about 1-1/2"-2" of 'glow plug' left behind. I have seen this first hand as well as Butch at CVI and is it just a coincidence that the only vehicles that I have seen this on contain a pollak valve?

2) 6-port valves. We have used them for years on thousands of installations and on our own. I have never had one fail on my own vehicles, and I have been asked to replace only a few on warranty. They need to be installed in a warm place, and not fed too-hot oil. A few switches have failed on valves sold the last year or so. Switch failure is not valve failure. I don't think there is any better track record on the 3-ports, and you need at least two of them (some use 3, for a faster purge), so they better be at least twice as good, right?

It is very easy to tell if your 6-port is working. We supply them with a buzzer. You shut off the engine. If you hear the buzzer, you left it on WVO.

The buzzer will tell you that you left power to the valve correct? Will it tell you if the valve itself has malfunctioned and did not purge your system? This will go unnoticed until the next morning when you try to start on WVO.

In my opinion, one should steer clear of the pollak valve as it's original design and intention was for a dual tank diesel application found in 1 ton chev/ford trucks. It was never supposed to get hot from WVO and this has led to the premature failure in my eyes.

make the short term investment and spring for the 3 port valves...it will save a lot in the long term.

Andrew

[PlantDrive]

A single motor drive 6-port is just as reliable as TWO 3-ports, which:

- costs more than twice as much
- take longer to install and need a controller of some sort to really be of much value
- give you no better indication of function than the 6-port (any would need status lights or a quick check to confirm operation)
- are just as susceptible to a switch failure, wiring connector failure or fuse failure, and so offer no advantage in that respect.

Switch failures happen but do not happen very often. You had one. In all the valves we have sold, I have had 3 or 4 bad switches, I think, and two were close together, in the last year. So, I do think Pollak had a problem with the switches for a period of time, but it seems to be rectified, we have had no reports of problems lately, and we have sold a lot of them to people in a lot colder climates than the BC Coast, and if they were on WVO the next morning they would not most likely not be getting the engine started at all, and I'd be hearing about it.

So, use two 3-ports if you wish, and likely they will be nice and reliable for you, but I do not agree that they really that much better than a single 6, and I have no vested interest in one setup over the other since we sell both along with a range of control options for the 3-port setups.

As for the glow plugs, there may or may not be a connection to the fact that you had a switch (not valve) failure and were not aware that you were not purging as expected. Whether that caused a tip to break off or a carbon buildup that made it difficult to get the plug out, I don't know. Maybe the van idled around Tokyo the last 15 years.

[PlantDrive]

Further, re: carbon on glow plugs - this is not uncommon.

Here's from another forum thread from a truck, re: stuck glow plugs...and relation to a glow plug that has not been operating properly for a while...

"Turns out it was carbon. And both stuck plugs came out in one piece with the threads undamaged. I just had to keep the PB Blaster ponded around them and keep working the plugs back and forth and lastly in and out. These two plugs were the ones that the wires had burned off at the inner gasket plug so they were inoperative for an unknown period of time. Presumably that allowed the carbon to build up."

Stuck/carboned glow plugs are often a problem on newer Mercedes, as well.

I think this issue has nothing to do with short term use of WVO, or a valve not switching back to diesel, what I am guessing was a very short term (weeks?) basis.

I suspect it has a lot more to do with an engine that's pretty carboned up to begin with and maybe (per above) made worse by a glow plug that has been burnt out for a while (how long?), allowing the carbon to build up around it more than it would have if it had been getting very hot every time.

[loki]

I'm sorry if I sounded too much as if I was here to bash good competition, that is not my intention.
There is nothing wrong with the Elsbett kit except the following:

- it's not at all fun to install. The English instructions, as I understand it, even from their dealers telling me so, are quite poor, tech support often non-existent (BTW, how long have you had your kit, how much did it cost, how long did it take to arrive after ordering, and have you installed it yet? Just curious)
- it is not meant for WVO (which IS very often considerably more viscous even for lower mainland / island use, even in summer, compared to new SVO), -you are advised by Elsbett to use new oil and to blend in diesel when it gets at all cold.
- the IP is not preheated and is therefore strained at every startup
- the WVO filter is not very large, and will therefore plug sooner than a larger capacity one, unless the oil is really well filtered before it goes in the tank. We routinely get 5000 km or more on a filter element using WVO that has only been settled a few weeks. If you have a filter element that is quite a bit smaller, that number will be less.

I was not getting carried away, I was pointing out a few facts about running that setup that people should know about before making a decision.

As for line heaters, nobody has yet shown, that I know of, that they actually heat the flowing oil, just that they heat the lines. Heating the outside of a steel line does not necessarily add much heat to moving oil inside the line. Yes, a lot of people have stuck this resistance wire onto their engine's fuel injection lines thinking it does something, but the only data I have seen of a type that seem to do something worthwhile is the induction type, and they are quite expensive. This would not be that hard to check...just check the return fuel temperature with them on, and with them off (and with the lines insulated, in both cases, for apples to apples comparison).

Sticking a bit of resistance wire onto an injection pump for 10 seconds or so will not heat the mass of metal and oil that is an injection pump. Best bet if you want to use single tank and take care of the pump is to also use an engine heater and keep things nice and warm (spring, fall, winter, even on the coast and Island)

Good luck with the Elsbett kit. Certainly, if used within their limitations, and once you get past the install, they work fine, and are a better idea than blending with all the weird stuff, IMHO, but be aware of the limits outlined above is all I am suggesting to anyone comparing - and if you use the van at temps well below freezing in winter, and/or make longer trips, the better heating/starting/range of a 2-tank setup will be appreciated.

You mentioned the idea of using the original tank - my understanding is there is a paint in the Delica original tanks which vegoil can loosen. Also it is not so easy to install a tank heater in them, in cases where one is needed. I am not sure if this paint issue is real. Maybe someone can tell me? I would be quite happy to use the original tank for WVO on a conversion, if someone wanted to, and use a small tank for diesel, if that is what the owner wanted, but I don't want problems with paint coming off the inside of a tank and blocking filters for a long period of time.

Then of course, there is the issue of range - since good WVO can be hard to obtain/process on the road, a lot of people do like the idea of a larger WVO tank, and still have the largish original diesel tank(s) full and available, in case they run out of filtered WVO or at least WVO that they feel they can trust.

Anyway, everybody have fun, just be careful with the solvent-blending, primarily; and try to be well informed enough not to have problems with starting, filter plugging, or worse later on. Do things well, however you do it, and you will have lots of success with WVO, I have, many others have.

Jim's tank is about 70 litres.
Getting a tank heater into that molded plastic tank....difficult. We looked at doing that.
If I was on the coast, there's no question in my mind that if I had a G, I'd single tank it.
There are tons of the Mercedes engines running single tank long term.

It's a very easy and inexpensive conversion, and you'd have no problems starting down to freezing, then, as I say, mix in the diesel in winter. If you do the math, it makes sense...you use no diesel from May to October, say, then maybe you use 30% on average the rest of the year....about the same diesel usage as a typical 2-tanker doing daily warmups and purges with diesel.

As I say, we've got a number of them in the States running single tank quite a while now...G's, I mean.
Steve Smith's, Mike Serpe's (ClubGwagen.com) and others...
And lots of 300D's, of course (same or similar engine).

A good heated filter (VM2) and some electric heat (Vegtherm) is the key, and maybe a flat plate heat exchanger.

That's what I put on my last 300D, as well, single tank, and it worked really well. It's on the Island now.

so single tanks work really well, or are they a pita? hard to tell.

[PlantDrive]

The only single tank setup we do is for the Mercedes engines up to and including 1999 and only recommend it for moderate climates. You could use that setup on a Mercedes engine on the Coast or the Island.

These are indirect injection engines with an inline injection pump that is very tolerant of thicker, colder oil at startup, and they have a sphere within the prechamber that is a unique design that allows for very good combustion of vegoil even at startup.

We add a coolant-heated filter, an inline electric fuel heater, and sometimes a flat plate heater, and install larger diameter fuel lines.

The Mercedes G-wagen we are discussing here has that engine.

We don't do single tank for the Delica.

[loki]

We don't do single tank for the Delica.

and because you don't sell them they are a bad idea, I get it.

[Adam]

We don't do single tank for the Delica.

and because you don't sell them they are a bad idea, I get it.

Not sure if that is what Ed's point is. From the research I've done the Mercedes engines are fundamentally different than other diesel engines in that they have a pre-heat chamber for the fuel before it hits the injectors.

[josh]

We don't do single tank for the Delica.

and because you don't sell them they are a bad idea, I get it.

Not sure if that is what Ed's point is. From the research I've done the Mercedes engines are fundamentally different than other diesel engines in that they have a pre-heat chamber for the fuel before it hits the injectors.

I would have to agree with Adam. Ed always seems very helpful on here and never tries to frighten WVO users into going to him. I think he was just being helpful and imformative. Thanks Ed for the explanation.

Josh

[loki]

We don't do single tank for the Delica.

and because you don't sell them they are a bad idea, I get it.

Not sure if that is what Ed's point is. From the research I've done the Mercedes engines are fundamentally different than other diesel engines in that they have a pre-heat chamber for the fuel before it hits the injectors.

I understand that, and that they don't have a single tank for the deli, and he bashed the one that is made by ellsbet in any way possible. opinions are great but sometimes they get exaggerated a bit too much and then later they can contradict each other.

don't know if I mentioned before but I don't have anything against plantdrive or any other wvo kit maker or reseller, or any style of kit, but I don't like people being misled whether it is on purpose or not.

btw, I'm done with this thread, it's not going to get resolved I don't think and I'm not interested in pointless back and forth.

Again, I infact like the plantdrive kits, I just like the single tank system better, if I put a 2 tank system in another vehicle it would probably be a kit from plantdrive.

'nuff said

[PlantDrive]

We're talking 2 different engines and 2 different injection pumps.

My comments about single tank, our version, which is a simple, inexpensive conversion, being fine for moderate climate on an IDI Merc engine, do not apply to a Delica engine, with a distributor pump.

So, Loki, I take it from your comments that you have your Elsbett kit installed, and are enjoying it; and you also see that for some applications, 2-tank would be the way to go for some people, if not for your personal, current situation.

And that you like our gear, generally, for what it's intended for, i.e. primarily 2-tank setups that give longer range, that will operate well on WVO in any climate without having to blend fuels, and don't strain the pump at startup, since they are starting on diesel.

Good. Now we are both done with the thread.

[EnviroImports.com]

DING,DING, Ding... and now that both contenders have had there last words , we call this a draw.

[delicat]

No, that's too easy!

Loki, how's your system working? Do you have problem starting in the morning?

I stopped by a shop in Winnipeg that install Elsbett's system. They are German people and are actually going to Germany to get trained. They had really high praise of the system.

But I'd like to know how Loki's kit is working on his Delica...

[josh]

might have to pm him to find out!

Josh.