Attention!! WVO Is it SAFE??

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CVI
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Attention!! WVO Is it SAFE??

Post by CVI »

We've recently encountered 3 delica's having some technical problem at cold start.

Problem:
Engine will not start at cold condition.

Fuel:
2 units were premixed with WVO and diesel and 1 unit had a separate tank for the WVO.

Failure:
The glo plugs burned out and the Glo plug tips were both severed upon removal on two of the delica's.There were signs of carbon particles found within the tip. We will try to pop out the tip remaining inside the glo plug housing without taking the cyl heads off but on a worst scenario, the cylinder heads will have to come off. What has caused the glo plug tips to break is still a big question mark as the glo plugs were original OEM plugs. The third unit just wont start (WVO/diesel mixed, glo plugs were ok). We will drain the tanks and refill with fresh diesel, replace the fuel filter and get it started.

Cause of Failure:
As all three units uses the WVO either premixed with diesel or with separate tanks clearly says that there must be something about the WVO used that causes the glo plugs, fuel filter to fail or malfunction. We can assume that mixing WVO with diesel may not be a good thing to do for now until we can determine why and how these components failed prematurely.

This may serve as a WARNING on the use of WVO as alternative fuel if not applied, filtered or processed properly pending our investigation of the actual cause of failure.

Just be careful...as the savings you get for the alternative fuel may not be savings at all after the repairs. We will update this thread as soon as we have something concrete on these units.
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Re: Attention!! WVO Is it SAFE??

Post by jessef »

mixing in this cold weather is not a good thing

in the summer warmer weather mixing is actually quite nice for the added lubrication

could be a bad source/filtered vo in those delica's. that or the owners didn't change the filters, etc...

curious to see about the tips burnt off. have you guys checked the drop resistor ?

on my Paj it was faulty and burning glow plugs like it was halloween.
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Re: Attention!! WVO Is it SAFE??

Post by EnviroImports.com »

Interesting post, but it sounds like you allready found the answer, Why would someone be starting there engine on wvo or even blended? for WVO, you require a duel tank set up, you start on Diesel, then when the wvo gets up to temp, you switch over, there should never be any cold starting on wvo.
we live in Canada, not nevada or arizona, you simply cant expect wvo to be good at starting your engine in this cold climate.
When we were making wvo systems, we had a on-dash computer that would monitor everything and tell you when you could switch over to vwo.


Is the van running a dedicated wvo tank?
do you think any particals are being left in the oil?
Is the Oil Titrating High? I have had some oil that was so full of free fatty acids that it had to be slowly bled in with usable oil , A high titrating oil will cause iregular burn. and another comon problem with running wvo for to long is coking up . If your running wvo, I STRONGLY recomend about every 4-6 weeks running some regular diesel or even B100 Bio diesel, and drive the van for a good haul to clean everything out. similar idea to an old carbed gas engine needing to be driven hard everyonce in a while to burn off the extra carbon.
Last edited by EnviroImports.com on Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Attention!! WVO Is it SAFE??

Post by loki »

EnviroImports.com wrote:Interesting post, but it sounds like you allready found the answer, Why would someone be starting there engine on wvo or even blended? for WVO, you require a duel tank set up, you start on Diesel, then when the wvo gets up to temp, you switch over, there should never be any cold starting on wvo.
we live in Canada, not nevada or arizona, you simply cant expect wvo to be good at starting your engine in this cold climate.
When we were making wvo systems, we had a on-dash computer that would monitor everything and tell you when you could switch over to vwo.
Down to -10 you can run 100% wvo all the time startup to shutdown if you have the right conversion kit. made in Germany by a company that has been doing it for over 25 years, I think they know what they are doing. (No I don't sell them and I'm not associated with them in anyway, just want people to know all the options :))

http://www.elsbett.com/us/about-us/introduction.html
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Re: Attention!! WVO Is it SAFE??

Post by konadog »

I sure don't claim to be an expert, but I have been blending all winter. Not a lot, but still adding WVO. I fill up with diesel, run off 10 liters which I replace with WVO and then run off 30 or 40 liters, fill up with diesel, run off 10 liters and add WVO and so on... As the weather warms I will soon start adding 20 liters rather than just 10. Haven't had any starting issues... yet :? :-D :M
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Re: Attention!! WVO Is it SAFE??

Post by EnviroImports.com »

10L in a full tank will be perfect to replace the lubricity of the ulsd, So long as its VERY well filtered, just make sure you take it for a couple good hard drives every once in a while. but for the winter we have had, I cant imagine running a big blend, the wvo just thickens up to much, and you only need one cold night to thicken it and damage your IP.
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Re: Attention!! WVO Is it SAFE??

Post by after oil »

EnviroImports.com wrote:Interesting post, but it sounds like you allready found the answer, Why would someone be starting there engine on wvo or even blended? for WVO, you require a duel tank set up, you start on Diesel, then when the wvo gets up to temp, you switch over, there should never be any cold starting on wvo.
we live in Canada, not nevada or arizona, you simply cant expect wvo to be good at starting your engine in this cold climate.
When we were making wvo systems, we had a on-dash computer that would monitor everything and tell you when you could switch over to vwo.


Is the van running a dedicated wvo tank?
do you think any particals are being left in the oil?
Is the Oil Titrating High? I have had some oil that was so full of free fatty acids that it had to be slowly bled in with usable oil , A high titrating oil will cause iregular burn. and another comon problem with running wvo for to long is coking up . If your running wvo, I STRONGLY recomend about every 4-6 weeks running some regular diesel or even B100 Bio diesel, and drive the van for a good haul to clean everything out. similar idea to an old carbed gas engine needing to be driven hard everyonce in a while to burn off the extra carbon.
what he said

i have been thinking about this all day because i have been running wvo for 3 years and have converted a few vehicles. it occurred to me that it must be a cold starting on wvo thing. bcdelica had to change his exhaust header gasket and a few other things i think because of a few hard starts on wvo when somebody forgot to switch back to diesel. i cant explain why it happens.=, or why it would break injectors
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Re: Attention!! WVO Is it SAFE??

Post by Kuan »

loki wrote:
EnviroImports.com wrote:Interesting post, but it sounds like you allready found the answer, Why would someone be starting there engine on wvo or even blended? for WVO, you require a duel tank set up, you start on Diesel, then when the wvo gets up to temp, you switch over, there should never be any cold starting on wvo.
we live in Canada, not nevada or arizona, you simply cant expect wvo to be good at starting your engine in this cold climate.
When we were making wvo systems, we had a on-dash computer that would monitor everything and tell you when you could switch over to vwo.
Down to -10 you can run 100% wvo all the time startup to shutdown if you have the right conversion kit. made in Germany by a company that has been doing it for over 25 years, I think they know what they are doing. (No I don't sell them and I'm not associated with them in anyway, just want people to know all the options :))

http://www.elsbett.com/us/about-us/introduction.html
Elsbett actually recommends blending in the winter. ELSBETT recommends mixing vegetable oil with 10 - 30% standard diesel fuel with subzero degrees with the single tank as well as with the two-tank systems. However, oHoyou will find more details for your vehicle in the ELSBETT booklet.

WVO is vegetable oil. It will coagulate at cold temperatures plain and simple. You either need to mix a very small amount into your diesel or properly preheat it before switching over and do a proper purge so no wvo is in the system on shutdown.

A good way to have a thermometer is to do various blends in small jars and leave them outside. You can see the various gel points and will give you an indication of what things look like in your tank and engine.
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Re: Attention!! WVO Is it SAFE??

Post by fexlboi »

Well, I don't know if our badly leaking Injection Pump is related to WVO, but we mixed over the winter always 20l of wvo in our 75l tank. Never had any starting problems, though.
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Re: Attention!! WVO Is it SAFE??

Post by vixentd »

Might want to check the rings on one of the vehicles that have been run for a while. The vw diesels have suffered with numerous carboned up rings. causing cylinder wear.
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Re: Attention!! WVO Is it SAFE??

Post by CVI »

Some updates:

Delica 1 (with independent tank for WVO) that had the broken tip left on the cyl head housing. Good news is we were able to pop it out! Great savings for Andrew! The delica fired up and apparently, his switch from WVO to diesel malfunctioned so the diesel isn't connecting when he needs to prior to shut down.

Delica 2 (WVO premixed with diesel) - we've drained the fuel tanks and observed this upon draining...WVO and diesel didn't quite mix well. We can tell by the viscosity of the fluids while draining. We will put about 20 liters of diesel tomorrow and try and fire her up after bleeding the lines and filter.

Delica 3 (with independent tank for WVO) - we've removed the glo plugs for inspection and the tip of the glo plug for cyl #2 has sheared of and was left on the cyl head. We will try and pop it out next.

I would say, based on the feedback of the other more experienced guys on WVO (Thanks for the added info!) that cause of failure (No start up with cold condition) could be due to the fact that the WVO has not switched over to diesel when it should.

So CHECKING THE SOLENOID OR SWITCH (COMPONENTS RESPONSIBLE FOR FUEL SWITCHOVER ) SHOULD BE REGULARLY CHECKED OUT AND MAKE SURE YOU ARE ON DIESEL BEFORE SHUTTING DOWN. Actually, our quickest way of checking if the switch over took place is the nice smell of French Fries when it should in fact smell like regular diesel exhaust. :-D
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Re: Attention!! WVO Is it SAFE??

Post by BCDelica »

All sounds like what can be excepted, or some of us have experienced;

A low viscosity fluid, WVO not heated enough prior to injection, will not burn properly and create substantial carbon deposits. Very easy to test; 1st remove your diesel use only injectors and glow plugs to inspect. Start your engine a few times, with difficulty on WVO - whether cooled too long without purging or just plain forgot to purge to diesel, remove injectors and glow plugs to compare with previously. You will notice a far greater than normal build up of carbon; which or course can create hot spots and result in fragile metal properties due to frequent high heat and cooling cycles.

Therefore it's most important to;

always introduce WVO to the injectors well heated; at least 80-90c at injection. - always!!
Ensure your WVO is well de-watered, entrenched water increases carbon buildup, plus creates acidic exhaust gases.
Consider adding a solvent to your WVO, I prefer acetone, to help reduce carbon deposit with the solvent effect and reduce viscosity by a tiny bit.

Personally don't recommend mixing diesel and WVO all year,only when the temperatures average 15c or above. There also is the possibility that your Delica diesel tanks linings will fail with regular high WVO exposure. And never go beyond a 50/50 mix even in the summer (or Thailand).

And find a way to remember, remind, to purge over to diesel on shut down.

My 2 bahts worth after 120,000 km of WVO Delica operation and as a petroleum chemist.

Regards,
Kevin
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Re: Attention!! WVO Is it SAFE??

Post by loki »

Kuan wrote:
loki wrote:
EnviroImports.com wrote:Interesting post, but it sounds like you allready found the answer, Why would someone be starting there engine on wvo or even blended? for WVO, you require a duel tank set up, you start on Diesel, then when the wvo gets up to temp, you switch over, there should never be any cold starting on wvo.
we live in Canada, not nevada or arizona, you simply cant expect wvo to be good at starting your engine in this cold climate.
When we were making wvo systems, we had a on-dash computer that would monitor everything and tell you when you could switch over to vwo.
Down to -10 you can run 100% wvo all the time startup to shutdown if you have the right conversion kit. made in Germany by a company that has been doing it for over 25 years, I think they know what they are doing. (No I don't sell them and I'm not associated with them in anyway, just want people to know all the options :))

http://www.elsbett.com/us/about-us/introduction.html
Elsbett actually recommends blending in the winter. ELSBETT recommends mixing vegetable oil with 10 - 30% standard diesel fuel with subzero degrees with the single tank as well as with the two-tank systems. However, oHoyou will find more details for your vehicle in the ELSBETT booklet.

WVO is vegetable oil. It will coagulate at cold temperatures plain and simple. You either need to mix a very small amount into your diesel or properly preheat it before switching over and do a proper purge so no wvo is in the system on shutdown.

A good way to have a thermometer is to do various blends in small jars and leave them outside. You can see the various gel points and will give you an indication of what things look like in your tank and engine.
yes, as I said you can run straight wvo down till -10, then you need to mix 50/50 till -15 or -20 then go all dino. It's all right there on the webpage and the instruction manual that came with my kit :)
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Re: Attention!! WVO Is it SAFE??

Post by BCDelica »

loki wrote:yes, as I said you can run straight wvo down till -10, then you need to mix 50/50 till -15 or -20 then go all dino. It's all right there on the webpage and the instruction manual that came with my kit :)
If you process WVO, add 5 gallons of dino diesel to 40-50 gallons of WVO will improve viscosity and gel points more then adequately for west coast winter temperatures. More diesel if needed, it helps with warm up viscosities too.

Didn't I hear -10c in the forecast for Vancouver tomorrow? (mah haha) :-D
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Re: Attention!! WVO Is it SAFE??

Post by Chewy »

damn you :evil:

I'm half tempted hop the next tuktuk and grab a beer with you.
FS: ' 95 Suzuki Every VW Kombi EFI.
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