Carseats in the Delica

[drrod]

I am just pointing out the basics of seatbelt mounting points for anyone else contemplating doing this and am not judging your design. its your vehicle, your child and your decision and no one elses.
I have not seen your design so cannot comment on it. but i am interested to see the way the tethers are mounted to the points, and also see the angle of the belt and length to see how the seat would react up on the belt stretching on impact since the mounting angle and length of the belt sounds like it is different.

Here are the pics. As you can see, the additional, non ratcheting lap belt passes over the frame of the car seat where the stock tethers are attached. All additional hardware is mountain climbing spec and the transverse climbing rope that acts as the top tether has been replaced with 1/4 in steel cable even though the rope was rated at 5000+ lbs. Cable was for my own peace of mind. When I put the seat in, I kneel on the car seat and cinch the lap belt tight. I recline the seat slightly, attach the tether and then bring the seat back to its original position. The seat does not move when installed. I can slide the van seat forward or back and just have to lengthen or shorten the tether as needed but installed this way, does not allow the seat to swivel.

Rod

[rezdiver]

Sent you a PM

[Feds]

I am a certified children's restraint systems technician, and I was recently contacted via email by a concerned parent about how to safely install a carseat in the Delica. Upon checking these forums, I found myself slightly perplexed about some of the modifications that people have made in order to install child restraints.

So theoretically, your province regulates the Children's Restraint Systems Technician trade, and you have a ticket from a provincial governing body?

Firstly--could anyone explain to me why parents have rigged tether points at the sides of seats to use the LATCH anchors to attach the child restraint to? What is the incompatibility with using the seatbelt, as is designed? Considering the crash forces involved, would these points even hold? Would the vehicle seat, which is now supporting way more force than it's designed for, hold? Next--are the add-on tether anchors at the bottom of the vehicle seats considered approved mounting locations for a tether anchor, ensuring that they won't pull loose and potentially become a projectile in the vehicle in a collision?

Have you done the force balance? I'm only curious because basic physics (F=Ma) suggests that for the same acceleration (i.e. the same speed at impact), 60 lbs of child and car seat will apply 1/4 the force on the seat belt mounts as 240 lbs of person. I'm not trying to attack your credibility, it's just that you go on to post this:

I need this information before I can best advise the parents who have contacted me. If the centre seating positions are incompatible with child restraints, why not use the front passenger seat to install the restraint on, and have an adult ride in the rear? I can imagine all the shocked looks from on-lookers seeing a little one "driving" :) It seems like the safest option--is there something I'm missing here? I would like to believe that people wouldn't intentionally put their children at risk and I would love to hear from those who've installed child restraints in the Delica.

-CG

The reason you don't put your child in the front left seat is that the highest energy, largest passenger compartment intrusion accident you are likely to get into is a front-offset. By that I mean two cars travelling in opposite directions, hitting head on, with the edge of one car hitting the middle of the other. Like in the crash test videos.

In this type of accident, with your child in the front left seat, you are basically using them to absorb the impact energy of the oncoming car. Not to mention the fact that you'll be showering your child with broken glass, possibly fuel, hot oil, coolant and/or battery acid if the impact is severe enough. In fact, I can't think of any safety or insurance group nor an automobile club that recommends putting your child in the front seat. In fact, all of them that I know of state that the back seat is the safest place for any child, car seat or not.

I'm very surprised that a certified children's restraint systems technician wouldn't be schooled in basic physics or be up to date on 50 years of automobile collision testing. I'm more surprised that you'd recommend putting a child in the most dangerous position in the car, especially when it is specifically recommended against by:

MTO:
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety ... tips.shtml

CAA:
http://www.caasco.com/insurance/auto-ve ... safety.jsp

IIHS:
http://www.iihs.org/brochures/pdf/kids_airbags.pdf

The list goes on...

For any Delica owner reading this, if you are really concerned about the mounting for your car seat, see if you can find a Professional Engineer to verify the design. Be specific in the questions you ask, as I doubt one will certify that a restraint system meets CMVSS standards, but they may evaluate whether your mounting system is more or less strong than the factory system.

[rezdiver]

"In this type of accident, with your child in the front left seat, you are basically using them to absorb the impact energy of the oncoming car. Not to mention the fact that you'll be showering your child with broken glass, possibly fuel, hot oil, coolant and/or battery acid if the impact is severe enough. In fact, I can't think of any safety or insurance group nor an automobile club that recommends putting your child in the front seat. In fact, all of them that I know of state that the back seat is the safest place for any child, car seat or not."

for infant and child seats with integrated harnesses yes. they all state that the back middle is the safest spot and a lapbelt can accomodate an infant seat. but modifications to the standard seatbelt design are also not reccomendeby the same sanctions that create the laws and sanctions that go through design testing of this equipment.

but be aware that by law for a booster seat the child must be placed in a seat where a shoulder belt is available. if no shoulder belt is available then the child will need to be seated in a lapbelt without the booster seat. this means that if you are an adult you must relinquish the front seat with the shoulder belt to the child and yourself sit in the back with the lapbelt even though the front seat position may seem to be a more dangerous place for the child.

[Feds]

I did not know that.

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety ... #preschool

However, I'd risk the ticket and fight the law if I had a vehicle with lap belts only in the rear seats, RHD or not. The incremental improvement of the shoulder strap far outweighs the detriment of the position in the vehicle. Especially considering that the only reason the booster is needed is to keep the shoulder belt below the neck. No shoulder belt, no need for a booster...

All this is my opinion only... I don't have the research handy to present the above as fact.

[CarseatGirl]

My point regarding utilizing the front seat was in the context of being versus making potentially unsafe modifications (such at those photos posted, in my opinion) in order to have a child in the back rows. I wasn't stating that the front was at all safer, as this is not the case.

Somebody asked about using a carseat on a rear-facing seat, because rear-facing is safer. Because no child restraint allows for use on a rear-facing vehicle seat, and this has not been crash tested, this isn't something that anyone would advise you to do in order to keep a child rear-facing longer. We have seats available that rear-face to 45lbs and are designed to be installed on forward-facing vehicle seats, thereby keeping your child rear-facing up until age 4, 5, or even 6.

Now that we seem to have established that child restraints are compatible with the seating and seatbelt systems in the Delica, I'm confused about the modifications. I understand the desire to move the seat and re-orient the seat, but modifying vehicle safety systems and using child restraints contrary to manufacturers' instructions seems like an unwise decision. One comment was made that people are adapting to the fact that the seatbelts do not lock in the Delica--but there's a device called a Belt Shortening Clip (BSC) that allows for manual locking of the belts, and is crash tested and designed to be used with child restraints.

With regards to my credentials... Nobody can be experts on every child restraint or every vehicle. That's why I'm here--because I was not comfortable advising parents on their Delica install without some additional information. It would be negligent to do so. The certification program in Canada is undergoing some changes, but the national program had previously been administered by St John Ambulance and is now transitioning to CPSAC (cpsac.ca). There are some provincially run programs, such as the BCTSF program here in British Columbia. I initially received my national training in 2002, and I have almost 10 years of experience in this field. Although I do have a university degree (three, in fact), my university education was not in physics. I do have an elementary understanding of crash physics but do not believe that your average parent can account for the variety of variables, different force pulls, etc, when making modifications such as rigging anchor points on a vehicle seat.

My concern with some of the posts in this forum (which date back a number of years--perhaps there was less available information out there?) is that parents would come and see these modifications and then attempt to install their own child restraints as such. It seems negligent to encourage people to make potentially unsafe modifications, especially considering people have stated that they have successfully installed child restraints in the Delica without making modifications.

I appreciate you all being so calm and helpful. I understand that this could potentially be a very hot topic. Rest assured that I am here to learn, and not criticize.

[CarseatGirl]

The incremental improvement of the shoulder strap far outweighs the detriment of the position in the vehicle. Especially considering that the only reason the booster is needed is to keep the shoulder belt below the neck. No shoulder belt, no need for a booster...

All this is my opinion only... I don't have the research handy to present the above as fact.

It used to be believed that the lap-shoulder belt use was more beneficial as compared to the risk of lap-belt syndrome (http://www.cps.ca/English/surveillance/ ... ndrome.htm) in using lap-only belts. There's a lot of conflicting data out there, however, and I don't believe that any blanket statement could be made at this point. Fortunately, we have carseats that harness to 65lbs and there's rarely a need to put a young, still developing, child into a lapbelt.

It seems like some laws have progressed beyond the reality--many people still have lapbelts, especially in the centre rear of vehicles, and may have no other option but to transport a child in that seating position. NHTSA in the US has documented that using a booster WITH a lapbelt is actually more dangerous than using no booster with the lapbelt. They advise that "BPBs must never be used with a lap belt only" (http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/chil ... e/know.htm)... I, too, would argue a ticket..although I personally would not transport my child in a lapbelt were there another, safer, option.

So although the only purpose of a booster is not to keep the shoulder belt below the neck (it's also to position the lapbelt off the abdomen and to give a child's legs the ability to bend at the knees thus retaining comfort and seating position) you guys are on the money with regards to booster law and lapbelt-only seating positions being contradictory.

[CarseatGirl]

One last thing.

This is the post that had me concerned:
http://www.delica.ca/forum/baby-car-sea ... -4783.html
..and then others were referencing this post or the OP and stating that they had made the same modifications, following his instructions.

While I don't agree with making modifications for a top tether anchor (as was posted in this thread), this likely isn't going to result in anything catastrophic in the event of a collision. The post I've linked above includes modifications that (in my opinion) should not be replicated by members here, especially considering there's absolutely no need to do so in order to install a child restraint in the Delica.

[thedjjack]

Somebody asked about using a carseat on a rear-facing seat, because rear-facing is safer. Because no child restraint allows for use on a rear-facing vehicle seat, and this has not been crash tested, this isn't something that anyone would advise you to do in order to keep a child rear-facing longer. We have seats available that rear-face to 45lbs and are designed to be installed on forward-facing vehicle seats, thereby keeping your child rear-facing up until age 4, 5, or even 6.
.

Thanks for the response. My Van has lap-belts only in the back. My kids are 5 years (55lbs) and 8 years (65lbs) and growing real fast these days. So lap-belts = no booster. My middle bench can be forward or rear facing with factory seat belts in both positions.

I was told rear facing was more dangerous by an expert over the phone? I can find no peer review literature for this view (hard to search as most search engines pick up childseat). US-Navy seats all passengers rear facing on all aircraft apparently.


Again welcome to the form as I think this is an important topic.

[thedjjack]

I would love to have a mini meet in Vancouver on the topic of kids in Delica.

Maybe CarseatGirl could attend.

Lets take this off the form to the field. And maybe we could make a sticky thread of the safest way to transport kids in the different models and seating options?

Anyone else interested?

[bassnailer]

I would love to have a mini meet in Vancouver on the topic of kids in Delica.

Maybe CarseatGirl could attend.

Lets take this off the form to the field. And maybe we could make a sticky thread of the safest way to transport kids in the different models and seating options?

Anyone else interested?

Great idea. Count me in.

[drrod]

potentially unsafe modifications (such at those photos posted, in my opinion)

CSG,

Please elaborate on your above statement.
Thanks
Rod

[CREGAN]

One comment was made that people are adapting to the fact that the seatbelts do not lock in the Delica--but there's a device called a Belt Shortening Clip (BSC) that allows for manual locking of the belts, and is crash tested and designed to be used with child restraints.

The lap belts do lock on the middle captain seats on an L400. They are to be pulled out fully, until you hear it click, and then let back until they are tight.

Craig

[mac_stang]

Man you guys don't like contrary info...The OP is just saying you should be using the manufacturers seat belt installation method, not going down to Canadian Tire and picking up some hardware and trying to re engineer your vehicle...go stop at an open scale and have CVSE tell you the same thing the OP is trying to say, maybe the badge will convince you. BC MVA regulations clearly state all safety related mods MUST be accompanied by an Engineers stamp of approval.

Brad.

[toadinahole]

Ok, I have scanned all 29 posts, and I am still a little confused, maybe someone has a photo of what they have done? I have a mid-row bench seat and currently have a bucket carseat properly installed (checked by our ever vigilant health nurse) on the door- side of that bench seat. Now I need to put in a rear facing non-bucket car seat, that will eventually be turned around to be a forward facing carseat, but not for a while. Where does the tether point go? Do I need on while the non-bucket carseat is still rear facing? any info would be great, and I do apologize if this question has been answered already in the posts below, 'scan' reading is all I really have time for these days:)
cheers!