Climategate

Topics may eventually be moved to other Delica Canada forums.

Moderators: BCDelica, mark

User avatar
Mr. Flibble
Posts: 1389
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:31 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: 1995 L400 Royal Exceed
Location: Issaquah, Washington
Location: Issaquah, Washington

Re: Climategate

Post by Mr. Flibble » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:51 pm

wetcoast wrote:Man made global warming has been proven to be a hoax. The top scientists have been cooking the books for years and have been stifling any descenting opinions. Do a Google search if you haven't read what the worlds top climate experts have been saying behind our backs. These are the top scientists that produce the data that the UN and all the other scientists base their research on. The emails have been verified. We're not hearing enough about this in the MSM (mainstream media) because big business, big government and big green are all due to profit from this scam. I think this proves that we need 100% separation of science and state.
Please, forgive me for being blunt, but: Critical thinking and Epic Science Fail.

Might I suggest that you pick up Michael Shermer's book "Why People Believe Weird things" Pay close attention to the chapter on Holocaust Denial. And, and the same time, pick up a copy of Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan's book: " The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark." Please pay particular attention to the chapter on "Baloney Detection"

You will notice that neither of these books discuss Global Climate Change. However, they teach basic critical thinking and how to evaluate the validity of an argument. The "Global Warming Conspiracy" argument has been soundly debunked.

I am being a little blunt because I just finished off a few books by Richard Dawkins and Richard P. Feynman and I have my "full on" science cap on, so take that as you will.
Canadian living in Washington USA

User avatar
wetcoast
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:51 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/

Re: Climategate

Post by wetcoast » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:03 pm

Please read the emails. Pretty simple to understand and they speak for themselves. No critical thinking or special skills needed.

Using "tricks" to "hide the decline" is not science.... Deleting emails, graphs and data rather than handing them over due to Access To Information Act requests is not science......and that's just the tip of what was said.

So why does this even matter??? Because these are the TOP climate scientists. World Governments and the UN policy is based on their ideas. Furthermore, mostly every other scientist.... "the little guy" bases their research on their graphs, data, computer models that these guys produce etc. It also shows the hostile attitude and complete hatred these scientists have against any of their peers who dares disagree... and the great lengths they will go to silence them. Again... not science.

Thanks!

User avatar
Mr. Flibble
Posts: 1389
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:31 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: 1995 L400 Royal Exceed
Location: Issaquah, Washington
Location: Issaquah, Washington

Re: Climategate

Post by Mr. Flibble » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:24 am

Cooking the books occurs in any field - either inside or outside of Science.

Just because some scientists engage in this does not invalidate the theory or, what is also known as the "body of evidence". For example, if I was a high profile physicist, and I conducted experiments on the theory of gravity, and then I colluded with colleagues to cook the books on the experimental results, it only damages the data that I have been working with. It does not damage the entire data set as a whole.

Thus, if I had done that as a top physicist, I would not have damaged the theory of gravity in any way, only my own reputation.

Science is great at throwing out invalid and "cooked" data. Argument from Authority (as in the "top" scientists) is not considered a valid argument. So, just because the emails exist and are damming to a small subset of UK scientists, it does not mean that you can extrapolate upon those emails to infer that the theory as a whole is invalid. To do so would be bad science. Thus, this scandal and these emails (Lets assume they are 100% true) have *NO* net effect on the theory at all. Period. Full stop.

What would damage the theory? A conflicting theory that fits the data set better than the climate change theory - but there isn't one. Thus the original theory stands on its merits. The emails have no net effect.

*edit* I said US scientists, not UK in my first draft, my bad.
Last edited by Mr. Flibble on Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Canadian living in Washington USA

User avatar
wetcoast
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:51 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/

Re: Climategate

Post by wetcoast » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:29 am

Mr. Flibble wrote: What would damage the theory? A conflicting theory that fits the data set better than the climate change theory - but there isn't one. Thus the original theory stands on its merits. The emails have no net effect.
The whole point is they have spent 10 years stopping "conflicting theories". Anyways, I am not here to defend anyone. Just wanted to sound the alarm. Obviously you havent taken the time to read the emails.

psilosin
Posts: 1045
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:31 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: L400
Location: BC

Re: Climategate

Post by psilosin » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:26 am

Furthermore, mostly every other scientist.... "the little guy" bases their research on their graphs, data, computer models that these guys produce etc.
I don't. I collect my own data and build my own models and graphs. My collegues do not. They collect their own data and build their own models and graphs. Sure we share data and ideas and work together on large scale projects but scientists do not run around using other peoples graphs and models...thats like one pop singer singing another pop singers current song. It wouldn't be research then would it that would be reporting.

User avatar
Mr. Flibble
Posts: 1389
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:31 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: 1995 L400 Royal Exceed
Location: Issaquah, Washington
Location: Issaquah, Washington

Re: Climategate

Post by Mr. Flibble » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:34 am

The whole point is they have spent 10 years stopping "conflicting theories". Anyways, I am not here to defend anyone. Just wanted to sound the alarm. Obviously you havent taken the time to read the emails.
No, that isn't the point. That is not how science works. Just because some people did this it does not invalidate my example above about Gravity. I have taken a look at the emails, but it is not worth my time to get in a tizzy over because there are ZERO well built competing theories. You can argue that they were trying to keep the skeptics out - but in peer reviewed journals many biologists work to keep the "science" of Michael Behe out of evolutionary publications. Why? Because he is utterly wrong, and has a crackpot view of evolution (irreducible complexity). Keeping his work out of journals is often called a "conspiracy" by the creationist crowd. When the truth is, Behe has bad scientific ideas, and they are not worth publishing. This is not a new thing in science. It should not come as a surprise.

The whole point of things like the peer review process is to keep the bad ideas out. Now, if these guys went too far? So what? It has a negligible effect on the scientific method.

Scientists, like everyone else are people, they are human, and do things just like everybody else. Right or wrong. Regardless of their actions, and regardless of the emails, it still has no impact on the body of evidence and the theory itself: ABSOLUTELY NO IMPACT WHATSOEVER.

What would have an impact is a competing theory that fit the data points and evidence better, but so far, no one has one. Thus the current theory must stand by default. This is science in action, and the scientific method. :)
Last edited by Mr. Flibble on Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Canadian living in Washington USA

User avatar
konadog
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:25 pm
Vehicle: 1992 GLX L-300
Location: Campbell River, BC

Re: Climategate

Post by konadog » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:16 am

Adam wrote:troll
X2 - I'd add ''wanker'' too...
Image
Happy Day!

User avatar
Adam
Posts: 847
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 2:37 am
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: RIP WVO '91 Super Exceed
Location: Nanaimo, BC

Re: Climategate

Post by Adam » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:48 am

wetcoast wrote:The whole point is they have spent 10 years stopping "conflicting theories". Anyways, I am not here to defend anyone. Just wanted to sound the alarm. Obviously you havent taken the time to read the emails.
Where are these e-mails you speak of? The only source I saw you link to was the Alex Jones conspiracy nut job that says climate change scientists are claiming that CO2 is a deadly poison. This ridiculous statement is a prime example of his entire argument. He makes a straw man argument and then kicks it up a notch for entertainment value to the point that it is completely inaccurate, not just misleading.

The mere fact that you posted this right wing propaganda to 'sound the alarm' is a form of support for the argument. If you didn't agree with it, why did you post it without any criticism, but with a resounding endorsement?
Last edited by Adam on Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

User avatar
tomanique
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:01 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: FRANKENDELI-92 Green/Grey Super-X
Location: Chilliwack
Contact:

Re: Climategate

Post by tomanique » Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:56 pm

Is it just me, or is it getting climate-changey in here?
Yarrrrp.
Image

User avatar
Mr. Flibble
Posts: 1389
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:31 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: 1995 L400 Royal Exceed
Location: Issaquah, Washington
Location: Issaquah, Washington

Re: Climategate

Post by Mr. Flibble » Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:00 pm

tomanique wrote:Is it just me, or is it getting climate-changey in here?
As per your sig: Naaarrrrrp.
Canadian living in Washington USA

User avatar
Modsqwad
Posts: 233
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:39 am
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: 91 Deli & KLR 650
Location: Victoria BC & Sayulita Mexico

Re: Climategate

Post by Modsqwad » Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:45 pm

Delica enthusiast website... individualist somewhat left thinking crowd... VS neocon, corpratist, oil industry reasearch based statements. I have to ask West Coast, are you at all surprised at the tenor of the responses you are getting? Or is that what you are
going for?
Andy Wilson
Sayulita Nay. Mx.

User avatar
wetcoast
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:51 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/

Re: Climategate

Post by wetcoast » Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:42 pm

For those that asked for it... the thousands of emails. No commentary. Just the emails. Search and read yourself in proper context.
http://www.eastangliaemails.com/


If you dont have time to sift through everything, this website run by harvard professors has compiles a Huge List of the most Scandalous Climategate Findings:
http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=28054

PS: I have shouldn't have posted the Alex Jones link without finding out who he is first. Never seen him before or heard his radio show. I just posted that video becaue it was just the most concise summary I could find on youtube.

PSS: To the moderator that banned my IP in an attempt to prevent me from posting again.... Is this really the best you can come up with? At least several people that support man made global warming took the time to PM me on the subject. We had a frank discussion on the subject, discussed facts, shared viewpoints etc etc. Very healthy discussion. No attacks. Respectful. Please not that now that my IP is banned, I cannot respond to your PM's. Please email me if you want to carry on the discussion. There is nothing wrong with this thread. I didnt see any person attacks or anything malicious. Sorry the best you could do is try to ban me. Very sad, reminds me of the Phil Jones (guy at center of controversy) trying to silence his critics. At least he has admitted the harm/distraction this scandal has caused and decided to step down as reported in the associated press a couple hours ago.

User avatar
Mr. Flibble
Posts: 1389
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:31 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: 1995 L400 Royal Exceed
Location: Issaquah, Washington
Location: Issaquah, Washington

Re: Climategate

Post by Mr. Flibble » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:09 pm

wetcoast wrote:For those that asked for it... the thousands of emails. No commentary. Just the emails. Search and read yourself in proper context.
http://www.eastangliaemails.com/


If you dont have time to sift through everything, this website run by harvard professors has compiles a Huge List of the most Scandalous Climategate Findings:
http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=28054

PS: I have shouldn't have posted the Alex Jones link without finding out who he is first. Never seen him before or heard his radio show. I just posted that video becaue it was just the most concise summary I could find on youtube.

PSS: To the moderator that banned my IP in an attempt to prevent me from posting again.... Is this really the best you can come up with? At least several people that support man made global warming took the time to PM me on the subject. We had a frank discussion on the subject, discussed facts, shared viewpoints etc etc. Very healthy discussion. No attacks. Respectful. Please not that now that my IP is banned, I cannot respond to your PM's. Please email me if you want to carry on the discussion. There is nothing wrong with this thread. I didnt see any person attacks or anything malicious. Sorry the best you could do is try to ban me. Very sad, reminds me of the Phil Jones (guy at center of controversy) trying to silence his critics. At least he has admitted the harm/distraction this scandal has caused and decided to step down as reported in the associated press a couple hours ago.

FYI, the arguments put forth in your links are still invalid. Yes I did look at them. Even if all the accusations are true and they may be, it does nothing to change the theory. Worse, it is a complete misuse of skeptical thinking. A similar method is used here:
http://www.holocaust-trc.org/deny_history.htm Holocaust Deniers use similar techniques to suggest that the holocaust never occurred. Both are instances of faulty logic. Even if we assume that the emails are 100% accurate it does nothing *NOTHING* to invalidate global climate change. This is a non-story, a total red herring, and completely scientifically pointless.

What saddens me most is that I had to put down my copy of QED "Quantum Electro Dynamics the strange theory of light and matter." by Richard P. Feynman to respond to this.

Wetcoast, I think your heart is in the right place, but you don't understand the basics of the scientific method and why this "scandal" is a total non-event.

*EDIT*

Here is a good link in a similar vein about "Teaching the Controversy" which describes why biologists are doing exactly the same thing as the climate scientists are to resist "intelligent design" or "Irreducible Complexity" from entering the biological sciences:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teach_the_Controversy If you can understand that link, and why the scientists are fighting it, you should also understand why the climate scientists are fighting the climate change skeptics.
Canadian living in Washington USA

User avatar
wetcoast
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:51 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/

Re: Climategate

Post by wetcoast » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:59 pm

Equating the historical fact that 6 million jews were killed.... to a scientific theory based on computer models, graphs, extrapolating data is absurd.

I am not here to defend for a certain view-point. For or against. I just wanted to post some emails that are not getting any airtime in the MSM.

There is a reason why Phil Jones, 1 of the scientists that sent some of the emails just stepped down from his top position (CHECK THE AP)... he recognizes what was said in the emails does not help the global warming cause and science in general. Very honest move and a complete 360* from what he was saying a few days ago (read news from 5 days ago).

mosquitocoast
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:16 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: Space Gear Super Exceed

Re: Climategate

Post by mosquitocoast » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:45 pm

Adam wrote:
wetcoast wrote:The whole point is they have spent 10 years stopping "conflicting theories". Anyways, I am not here to defend anyone. Just wanted to sound the alarm. Obviously you havent taken the time to read the emails.
Where are these e-mails you speak of? The only source I saw you link to was the Alex Jones conspiracy nut job that says climate change scientists are claiming that CO2 is a deadly poison.
Well, in Vancouver at least, I read about these incriminating e-mails this past Monday in The Province newspaper. They were cited by Jon Ferry's column, which was more about the bigger global warming debate.

The e-mails are pretty brutal to the climate change cause, but at the risk of sounding like a fence-sitter, some perspective is needed. Saying the emails are proof of a hoax is like saying that Enron is proof that capitalism is a conspiracy, or that steroids scandals are proof that baseball is a fraud.

Post Reply

Return to “General Discussion”