Why Do Mice like Delicas

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Growlerbearnz
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Why Do Mice like Delicas

Postby Growlerbearnz » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:25 pm

Nubbin: below the TPS, inside the return spring drum, is a rubber boot. Inside the boot is a small cylinder of plastic, about 5mm diameter and 10mm high, that links the TPS shaft with the accelerator shaft. It might have come off with the TPS, or it might be stuck to the accelerator shaft.
TPSlinkBoot.JPG
TPSlinkBoot.JPG (69.2 KiB) Viewed 519 times



The Hyundai injection pump has its own idle speed screw- it's at the back of the pump, in about the same position as the full speed screw was on the front (that's the one you set to 6.7mm). I removed the Hyundai idle speed screw from my pump as the Mitsubishi one should do the job- it looks like yours still has the Hyundai screw in place, and that's what's keeping the arm from reaching the proper idle setting.
IdleScrewDelete.JPG
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IdleScrewDelete2.JPG
IdleScrewDelete2.JPG (74.41 KiB) Viewed 519 times


Regarding the idle speed adjustment: When you're re-positioning the lever on the splines, don't get too hung up on the idle screw length. It's unlikely yours will end up exactly the same as mine, every pump and engine is different and will idle at a slightly different place. As long as you've got 750rpm and the idle screw has some adjustment left in either direction, you're probably good.

If I'm honest, my idle screw is probably a bit short. If I had moved the lever just one spline back the idle screw would be longer, about halfway along its adjustment range, and attaching the accelerator cable would have been easier too. See how my accelerator cable is as long as it can be, at the end of its adjustment? Same with the AC idle actuator shaft, mine is set to the longest it can go. It's not an issue, it all runs just fine, just be aware that if you run out of adjustment on something you can always turn the accelerator lever back one spline.

LInkages.JPG
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I've updated the TRL post with this as well.
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lrp374
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Why Do Mice like Delicas

Postby lrp374 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:37 pm

I've now started on the accelerator relocation and just like yesterday ( Page 1) if the van starts it will only run @ about 500 rpm no matter what position the throttle is. I usually need full throttle to get it started but once running will only run @ 500 no matter where the throttle is. I think maybe I should go back to original sttings and start again. My original settings were:
Fuel: Found 14.48
New 15.4

Comp: Found 10.7
New 11.8

These numbers don't seem a lot different so it makes me think I've done something else unintentionally.

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Why Do Mice like Delicas

Postby Growlerbearnz » Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:34 pm

If you've changed the accelerator lever spline position, it's most likely that, but yes, going back to original is safest. Then you should be able to move the accelerator lever one spline, see how it goes, and repeat until you have full movement.
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Postby lrp374 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:50 pm

I'm a little baffled by why the changes to the fuel and boost make it so the engine will only run @ 500 rpm. I can see that moving the idle position will affect things but why would going from idle to full throttle do nothing? It did this even before I touched the throttle position.

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Postby Growlerbearnz » Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:15 pm

Maybe the build tolerance on a Hyundai pump is more than I expect, or there's some other difference in our pumps. Winding the fuel screw out (longer) changes the pivot point for the whole governor linkage towards the less-fuel, more-idle end of things. It sounds like it's unable to get from the idle to the full power range and it's just running on its idle spring.

The accelerator lever doesn't actually move very much once its inside- maybe 10-15mm- and all it does is add tension to a spring that opposes the centrifugal governor, so a relatively small adjustment to the fuel screw could quite easily tip it over from running fine to only just idling, if it were near the edge already.

The boost setting doesn't do anything until boost is present, so it's unlikely to be that.

Luckily there's nothing in our pumps that can "fall off" so returning your fuel screw to where it was should bring your idle back. On some older Bosch pumps you'd be adjusting and hear a "twang" and you'd have to open it up to hook a little spring back on. Nightmare!

Still, I'm surprised that little adjustment was enough to do this. Maybe it's better to do this in a different order- first turn the accelerator lever on its splines so the idle screw is at about 10mm, then adjust the fuel until it'll idle at 750rpm.

I'm sorry if I've opened a can of worms here. I'm seeing an opportunity to build a working knowledge of the D4BF for others who fit one, but I imagine you're seeing it a bit differently right now. :-(
Nothing says "poor workmanship" more than wrinkles in the duct tape.

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Postby lrp374 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:33 pm

Thanks for your patience Growler. I'll start with the fuel screw and see what happens. Now @ least it makes sense. It all sounded so simple. :-(

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Postby Growlerbearnz » Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:35 pm

Sorry, I missed yesterday's post. Here's a photo of an accelerator lever being lifted a splined shaft, with the upper return spring (in the metal drum) removed:
93.jpg
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You're trying to find the nut that goes onto the threads at the top so you can lift the lever off the splines, rotate it clockwise so it's aiming more like the lever on my engine (with the idle screw much shorter than yours), and drop the lever back onto the splines- all without turning the splined shaft or unleashing the return springs.

This can be tricky. The shaft doesn't really want to turn, but the return springs *really* want to be somewhere else. Maybe take photos of where they hook on, just in case. Maybe even remove the top return spring and complete the adjustment and testing without it in place, then once everything is working again put it back. You'll need some kind of hooked tool (a bit of bent wire works) to pull the spring's end back in place.
Nothing says "poor workmanship" more than wrinkles in the duct tape.

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Postby Growlerbearnz » Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:42 pm

It's simple- the second time you do it. The first time is terrifying, especially when it runs at 500rpm and you think "shit, I've just broken a $5000 engine".
Nothing says "poor workmanship" more than wrinkles in the duct tape.

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Postby Growlerbearnz » Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:36 pm

lrp374 wrote:Was I supposed to put the plastic collar back in?
Could you please confirm which nut to loosen and rotate for the accelerator. It may be a dumb question but it certainly isn't the first I've asked and I'm sure it won't be the last!!


Leave the boost pin's plastic collar out. It restricts fuel addition under boost, which we can adjust more finely by rotating the diaphragm.

The nut and accelerator lever repositioning, in detail:

Remove TPS, boot (if fitted), and plastic link nubbin:
RemovingTPS.JPG
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UnderTPS.JPG
UnderTPS.JPG (59.89 KiB) Viewed 501 times

LinkNubbin.JPG
LinkNubbin.JPG (58.42 KiB) Viewed 501 times


Note where the upper return spring is hooked to the IP body. (Also note the lower return spring's attachment points. It shouldn't come unhooked, but if it does it's good to know how to reinstall it.)
SpringHook.JPG
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Unhook the return spring from the drum to release the tension.
UnhookSpring.JPG
UnhookSpring.JPG (70.41 KiB) Viewed 501 times


Here's what you're left with: an un-tensioned return spring, and an idle screw that's too long. TAKE NOTE of the alignment of the black splined shaft and the accelerator lever so you can undo any changes if needed.
Original idle.JPG
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Undo the 10mm nut and remove the spring, drum, and plastic spacer thingy but BEWARE; the accelerator lever might try and pop up off the splined shaft. Don't let it. At this point you might want to mark the lever with a sharpie to record its alignment with the splined shaft.
Removespring.JPG
Removespring.JPG (84.7 KiB) Viewed 501 times


While holding the accelerator in the original idle position (and holding it down so it doesn't pop off the splines), wind the idle screw back until it's about 10mm long.
Reposition.JPG
Reposition.JPG (71.04 KiB) Viewed 501 times


Lift the accelerator lever up just enough to disengage it from the splines. The lower return spring is still in place, so it will be fighting you. Turn the lever until it meets the idle screw, and push it down to re-engage the splined shaft. The splined shaft should not have turned during this operation. (Note that in these pictures, I haven't actually changed the lever's position on the splines, which is why the shaft has turned since the previous picture) The position of the splines might not let you line the lever up perfectly- just get it close, and adjust the idle speed screw later to correct the idle.
Repositioned.JPG
Repositioned.JPG (80.2 KiB) Viewed 501 times


While still holding the lever down, reinstall the upper return spring and drum, and the 10mm nut. Be sure the return spring's lower hook is in place around the full speed screw- it's a pain to reposition once the nut is on.
Re-engage the return spring's hook with the drum, start the engine, and adjust the idle. Then re-install the TPS.
Nothing says "poor workmanship" more than wrinkles in the duct tape.

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Why Do Mice like Delicas

Postby lrp374 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:40 pm

I adjusted the fuel to 14.55 and it starts and runs fine. Learn something everyday and sometimes 2 things! I think I'll leave it there for now and check out how the rest of the changes work. I think I could go back toward 15 a bit but my patience is a bit thin right now so I think it's time for a beer!! :-D
Will let you know about the remainder after I put things back together.
Thanks again for your help Growler ----- I know the whole site counts on your knowledge.

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Postby lrp374 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:02 pm

Setting Today: Fuel 14.55
Comp 11.8

I put everything back together and adjusted the throttle cable and transmission cable to specifications.

The test drive was different from before that's for sure. The boost was way faster which was expected and the EGT's took a lot longer to build up and for my short drive didn't seem to go as high. The real surprise was the throttle response was terrible. You put your foot to the floor and it crawls along until the rpm's reach about 2000 and then you have some power. It's the kind of slow response that could cause an accident. Even when you are sitting in neutral it seems to take a long time to respond.

The pictures don't show anything particular but it does show the accelerator position has changed as I needed to lenghen the throttle cable and the A/C idle up rod.
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Why Do Mice like Delicas

Postby lrp374 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:07 pm

I just took another look @ the pictures to compare your setup to mine. It looks to me that my throttle connection point and idle location are different than yours. The piece it totally different!! What do you think?

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Postby Growlerbearnz » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:15 pm

lrp374 wrote:I just took another look @ the pictures to compare your setup to mine. It looks to me that my throttle connection point and idle location are different than yours. The piece it totally different!! What do you think?


They sure are, it looks like they moved the idle screw out- it's a little irritating to adjust on my engine, it looks much easier on yours. It shouldn't change the way the engine runs, but it looks much friendlier to use.

lrp374 wrote:The real surprise was the throttle response was terrible. You put your foot to the floor and it crawls along until the rpm's reach about 2000 and then you have some power.


Probably not the cause of the "flat spot" in acceleration, but when you put the pedal to the floor, does the accelerator lever on the pump hit the full speed screw, or does the accelerator pedal hit the carpet first? I think the accelerator pedal gets flattened over the years- I had to bend mine back up. Grab pedal, pull towards you to bend it up a little, then test to see if the lever hits the stop like it should.

Anyway: flat spot. It sounds like it's running lean until the boost kicks in, and then the boost compensator adds enough fuel to make it happy.
The fuel screw might not be back *exactly* where it was, it can be sensitive when you're near its ideal position. Try turning it in half a turn, that will add more fuel until the boost kicks in. When you turn the fuel screw in half a turn the idle should also increase a little, and you'll need to adjust the idle screw. Take it for a drive and see if it's improved. You should be able to find a position where it accelerates well, boost kicks in around 1500rpm, it makes a puff of black smoke when you first stomp your foot down but otherwise doesn't smoke, and EGTs are nice and low, especially when cruising at part throttle.

The boost coming on quickly comes from the diaphragm spring seat. Turning it down (like you have) makes the spring lighter, so the boost has an easier job of pushing down the diaphragm, meaning extra fuel starts being added at lower boost levels. If you're happy with the way the boost comes on, you can leave the spring seat where it is. It's possible to wind it down *too* far, so the spring allows extra fuel almost all the time- it'll go like a rocket, but it'll leave a smokescreen (also like a rocket) and your EGTs will be higher, even when cruising at low boost and part throttle.

Once you've got the fuel screw adjusted and your acceleration back, final tuning will be to watch for smoke and high EGTs under boost/full throttle. If it's too hot and smoky, you can fine-tune it by rotating the diaphragm. Making the offset cone closer to the front of the engine will reduce the amount of extra fuel over the whole boost range, without changing the way the boost comes on or the off-boost power. You might even find that the factory setting is acceptable, now that the spring seat is wound down a little.
Nothing says "poor workmanship" more than wrinkles in the duct tape.

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lrp374
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Why Do Mice like Delicas

Postby lrp374 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:23 pm

Thanks again for the quick reply Growler. You'd almost think your next door instead of the other side of the earth!

Latest news:
1. The accelerator lever does touch the stop and the pedal is still about an inch off the floor.

2. I did the half turn adjustment you suggested. I must say my skill, tool selection and appropriate phrases have improved with each attempt. I now only need a handful of special tools to do the change in a reasonable fashion. I have not tested the change on the road as yet but the response is much better just sitting still. I am like you say on my way to improving the situation. I had no idea when I started the changes that everything was so connected together. I am a lot wiser now and perhaps a little gun shy. Hopefully you can have a few days off while I sort out the improvements.

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Why Do Mice like Delicas

Postby Growlerbearnz » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:54 pm

Sounds like you're sorted.

Wind in the fuel screw (in half turn increments) to increase low boost/cruising power (and EGT).
Turn the diaphragm to change full throttle/high boost power (and EGT).

Repeat until it's how you like it. (This is where an air/fuel gauge comes in real handy- adjust both until it won't go lower than 18:1, and you know you're not going to cook anything, without having to watch the EGT gauge like a stalker.)

I will have to edit my post about tuning so it's more methodical, more step-by-step, rather than "just do all the things".
Nothing says "poor workmanship" more than wrinkles in the duct tape.


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