Arctic sea ice likely to hit record low next week

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Re: Arctic sea ice likely to hit record low next week

Post by glenn »

I'm sure if you broke down the life of even the most hardcore environmentalist you'd find many things they could be doing better
No kidding. Why are critics always so hard on those who make the effort? Like if you aren't riding a bamboo bike with soy based tires that are bound with saliva and urine, in hemp and cedar bark pants, you have no right to be proud of the efforts you have made. If you're not living in a 100% earthen pit dwelling, covered with twigs and leaves, and reading by a light powered by your own fecal methane, then you have no right to judge the consumption habits of others. Why this need to pick apart the efforts of those who are making real and tangible reductions in their consumption habits? If you can't do everything, then don't bother doing anything?

For sake of brevity, I didn't lay out my entire approach to the material world, and how I would handle each and every variation and situation. For example, I did say I try to fix things rather than replace them. I did not say I fix everything. No kidding that when the resources required to repair something exceed those to replace it, it would anti-efficient to repair it. This is simple common sense.

When I talk about buying used electronics - I'm buying older electronics and giving them a longer life. My computer is nearly 6 years old, I run ubuntu because it is more legacy software friendly. And yet, I am still very much a part of the digital age. In fact, my entire business depends on a strong personal and professional presence across many social networks. I am much more digitally literate than my brother - who upgrades his computer roughly every second year. Electronic lifecycles are way too short - and I'm saying that there are ways around their designed, and not functional, obsolescence.
Same goes for clothes. I buy clothes, new and used, and I wear them out. Other people buy clothes to hang in their closets. This is considered an acceptable pass time. This has a huge cost, not only to the environment but also to the poor sods who make them
.
And you can do your own research, it's pretty easy to find info - but you are grossly over-estimating the amount of embodied energy in a car. You choose to stand by your feeling that you are somehow doing good by driving an old car. However, you would have a hard time finding data to support this. Especially since not only are newer cars more efficient, but they are also much cleaner burning. Go ahead and try to prove me wrong - I would welcome it in fact, because, as you know, I too drive an old, dirty vehicle.

I for one like living in a modern world. I like all the improvements to our quality of life that petrochemicals have brought us. The point is, that in the last 20 years or so our consumption has gone rampant, and it's costing us all. If everyone in North America was able to make the same changes to their lives that I, and many others have made (not commuting by car, not eating factory meat and avoiding agri-industrial foods, demanding more life from consumer goods) then we would be well on our way to a target of less than a two degree temperature change. Best part is, one's quality of life improves along with it - try it. Instead, we have been duped by the "economic crisis" swindle of the last 20 years into accepting a return to the highest levels of income disparity since just before the great depression. But that's a whole different discussion.
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Re: Arctic sea ice likely to hit record low next week

Post by nxski »

I don't mean to put down your efforts, I think they're very commendable. I like to put down environmentalists who think they are the doing everything in their power to be green and hold that against everyone else. I simply wanted to point out how many different ways there are to look at things and how you have to look at each very closely. The unfortunate thing about trying to be green is that in a lot of ways it costs more. It's easy to say "ride a bike, it's cheap," when in reality many need vehicles nowadays, and we tell them "buy a new one, it's better for the environment". I've seen no proof than driving a new vehicle or an old vehicle is better for the environment therefor I choose to believe I'm doing the right thing. I start with the biggest factor, fuel, and will be converting to WVO.

My point about electronics is that it's great to get the longest lifespan possible out of them, but our ability to buy used electronics relies on the wasteful consumerism of others. If everyone got the most put of their electronics we would all have to buy new which would put a strain on the poor (other factors to consider, the consequences of being green).

Now, let's take design and construction. These are extremely wasteful consumer driven businesses. I'm a huge fan of design and building green but my kitchen is still functional and yet I want to rennovate because it's out of style. As green as the building process is I still have to take many items to the dump which would otherwise be perfectly functional if left in place.

I know I'm touching on many subjects and the points probably seem irrelevant but there are just so many situations and so many ways of viewing these situations. I'm by no means trying my hardest to be good to the environment which makes it bother me even more when I hear uninformed people saying how green they are because they drive a hybrid, etc. Forget that they drive a hummer hybrid and another 10 cars in a mansion and are discussing this while eating McDonalds and wearing clothes made in China, having a smart phone in their pocket, etc, they are true environmentalists. :-D I suppose hypocrits just get to me.

I want to note that this is not directed at anyone on the forum. I've responded to some points Glenn brought up but I certainly don't mean to bash his efforts, as stated before I think they're commendable and he truly thinks through what he buys and does.
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Arctic sea ice likely to hit record low next week

Post by Firesong »

I've read well researched claims that a lot of the 'research' the other researchers are basing their claims on as garbage. But that's not as PC for governments and such to follow nor for the general climate.
Problem is there is no definite proof. Although the billions of liters of oil dumped into the ocean can't be good. I just wish people would pick up the crap their dog leaves behind.
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Re: Arctic sea ice likely to hit record low next week

Post by Mr. Flibble »

Firesong wrote:I've read well researched claims that a lot of the 'research' the other researchers are basing their claims on as garbage. But that's not as PC for governments and such to follow nor for the general climate.
Problem is there is no definite proof. Although the billions of liters of oil dumped into the ocean can't be good. I just wish people would pick up the crap their dog leaves behind.
No proof of climate change or no proof of the counter claims?

The proof in favour of carbon emissions having an impact on the environment is extremely solid. True, there are natural weather cycles that change. However, the science is extremely well documented on that as well.

http://www.realclimate.org/
http://www.grist.org/article/series/skeptics/
http://www.skepticalscience.com/
http://scienceblogs.com/illconsidered/2 ... ceptic.php
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Arctic sea ice likely to hit record low next week

Post by Firesong »

Exactly! I think the only way to stop earth man impact it to remove man from the equation. And the earth is prepared to do that by not supporting us any longer than it can.
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Re: Arctic sea ice likely to hit record low next week

Post by glenn »

Here's what I don't get. Most people on this subject fall into two camps:

One, everything is fine, this is natural, David Suzuki is just trying to get rich.
Two, okay I'm convinced everything is not fine and it's our fault, but it's too late, and were doomed.

In either case, the majority of people are doing nothing, except token efforts at best. Why?

I propose a third camp:
okay I'm convinced everything is not fine and it's our fault and things are going to get a lot worse. But, there must be hope that we can ride this out, and we have make a serious effort to mitigate this now. The sooner we turn things around, the less the damage.

People like me who still have hope are not admirable or commendable - we just use plain common sense. Where is the common sense these days? Take the crazy idea that "our ability to buy used electronics relies on the wasteful consumerism of others." As if this is some kind of justification to keep on consuming rampantly. The simple fact remains - there are thousands of tonnes of perfectly good electronics going into the trash every single day, and someone should try to make use of them, because almost no-one is.

People have the mistaken impression that reducing one's carbon footprint requires some kind of sacrifice, and is therefore a noble act. The fact is, most efforts result in a better quality of life, a healthier lifestyle, and an overall positive change as one slows down and re-evaluates one's goals/ambitions/and costs vs payoffs. I would suggest that it is everyone else who is making the huge sacrifices, and really for what? All this consumption sure has not delivered on a better quality of life. I'm so tired of all the excuses.
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Re: Arctic sea ice likely to hit record low next week

Post by nxski »

I disagree with 2 statements here. First, I do buy the majority of my electronics from thrift stores. I also think this is good practice, but it doesn't make sense to tell everyone to buy used because that physically won't work. Secondly, I do believe it's a sacrifice to go green. I would have to sacrifice a lot of time getting places, I would have to sacrifice job opportunities because I don't have the latest design program, I would have to sacrifice traveling and playing the many sports I enjoy, give up my van (which I know we can all relate to as being a big loss), lose money buying green construction materials for the client who doesn't want them and then not have enough money to do the same for the following client, sacrifice seeing my friends since most live an hours drive away. I can safely say that I would be unhappy if I were a hardcore environmentalist. For these reasons I do what I can without sacrificing so much as to lose enjoyment from life. To some (possibly you Glenn), that means I am in the second group of people you mentioned, but to tell you the truth, I could'nt care less since if the world doesn't approve I shall be killed off. :-D
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Re: Arctic sea ice likely to hit record low next week

Post by glenn »

I'm sorry, I don't mean to turn this personal - I think I am picking on you.

The point is, you don't have to turn "hardcore environmental" to make more than a token difference. There are a thousand things you can do besides giving up your car. It's probably not even your biggest contributor. Good for you for not always needing the newest electronics. Stop eating fast food (I don't know that you do). Almost everyone can drive less. And so on.

As far as your chosen profession - we face the same conundrum. How can you justify making anything? I for one, focus on high quality work, and highly functional designs. When I renovate a home, I focus on making improvements of efficiency, and try to remain modest in scope. It's a great niche to be in. Bigger is not always better. People now think that they need things like two fridges, or a kitchen off their kitchen, or industrial sized kitchens - but they don't.

I like to imagine a hypothetical future that not only provides us the benefits of modernity, but perhaps has a new focus on aesthetics and cottage industry, hand made locally based industries for hard goods. Don't get me wrong, I love industry and the improvements to quality of life it offers, but we need to back away from the rampant industrial model we have now. You know, expensive, hand made items to be passed on and bought once in a lifetime, rather than cheap, crappy ikea furnishings that have to be thrown away every time you move them. One way to make this come about - stop feeding the bear that's rampaging through the village. Support local industry, even when it costs more. There is no better way to cast your vote than how you spend your dollars. I'm a case in point that there is a resurgence of support for the manufacturing middle class.
Nothing wrong with having lofty goals.
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Re: Arctic sea ice likely to hit record low next week

Post by Mr. Flibble »

glenn wrote: The point is, you don't have to turn "hardcore environmental" to make more than a token difference. There are a thousand things you can do besides giving up your car. It's probably not even your biggest contributor. Good for you for not always needing the newest electronics. Stop eating fast food (I don't know that you do). Almost everyone can drive less. And so on.
The problem with that idea is that it involves restricting an individuals personal freedom. Sure, to actually solve the issue of climate change, things will actually have to CHANGE. But some people want the newest electronics, some people enjoy driving. This is not about what you can do, but what you want to do. If you are someone who wishes to make a positive contribution to the environment, then of course you are motivated to make those changes. What if you are someone that is not? What if you want to drive a big gas guzzling car? What if you can afford it?
glenn wrote: As far as your chosen profession - we face the same conundrum. How can you justify making anything? I for one, focus on high quality work, and highly functional designs. When I renovate a home, I focus on making improvements of efficiency, and try to remain modest in scope. It's a great niche to be in. Bigger is not always better. People now think that they need things like two fridges, or a kitchen off their kitchen, or industrial sized kitchens - but they don't.
Need? No of course they don't need any of this. You could live as a guy out on the street. I am sure that those guys have a much lower carbon footprint. It comes down to individual wants. It comes down to money and the economy. I recently got a 92" TV for our media room. Do we need this TV? Absolutely not. But we wanted it.
glenn wrote: I like to imagine a hypothetical future that not only provides us the benefits of modernity, but perhaps has a new focus on aesthetics and cottage industry, hand made locally based industries for hard goods. Don't get me wrong, I love industry and the improvements to quality of life it offers, but we need to back away from the rampant industrial model we have now. You know, expensive, hand made items to be passed on and bought once in a lifetime, rather than cheap, crappy ikea furnishings that have to be thrown away every time you move them. One way to make this come about - stop feeding the bear that's rampaging through the village. Support local industry, even when it costs more. There is no better way to cast your vote than how you spend your dollars. I'm a case in point that there is a resurgence of support for the manufacturing middle class.
Nothing wrong with having lofty goals.
The idea of supporting local industry even if it costs more makes little sense on a Delica forum. After all, this forum is about driving imported vans that were not made locally. We bought foreign vans. Why? They are a fair price and they do what we want. If we were to buy locally we might buy Toyota Tacoma's that were built in Ontario, but we all chose deliberately not to do this. The idea of buying locally is great, and people espouse it when it suits them, that is, when they can get what they want locally. What happens when they can't? Or, the price elsewhere is so significantly different? They buy elsewhere. This is the reality of economics.
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Re: Arctic sea ice likely to hit record low next week

Post by glenn »

I'll back down.

Maybe Kona dog has it right - he has no illusions that there is any hope for us. It's depressing though.

It is really easy to poke apart anyone's effort for change - it's impossible to live here in this time without a great deal of hypocrisy - no kidding. I never implied that anyone's freedom should be restricted, I naively hoped that people are inspired on their own to make personal choices that make sense to them. The problem with the amount of "freedom" we have now days is that no one is accountable to anyone. There is no real sense of community, and the consequences of our actions are so remote to our daily lives that no one even considers them.

I really hope that the neo-liberals have it right and that the environmentalists are alarmists and we are not sitting at a tipping point of no return. Otherwise the next few thousand years could be quite unpleasant.

Party on.
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Re: Arctic sea ice likely to hit record low next week

Post by Mr. Flibble »

glenn wrote:I'll back down.
I really hope that the neo-liberals have it right and that the environmentalists are alarmists and we are not sitting at a tipping point of no return. Otherwise the next few thousand years could be quite unpleasant.

Party on.
Unfortunately the next few hundred years could indeed become quite unpleasant. I doubt that this will extend beyond 200-300 years. My reasoning for this is due to the progress of technological change. It would be possible to terraform the atmosphere if we so chose. That is, if we saw a benefit.

But the outlook is not good. Ironically though, the outlook *IS* good for Canada. The Northern shipping routes will open up. Growing areas of arable land will extend further North increasing production of wheat and the like.

Where it won't work out so well is in low-lying areas that will become flooded. We will see many more dykes in the future like Amsterdam. Areas around the equator will have major issues. And, with the change in climate patters I would expect to see much more war as arid areas become farm able, and former good farmlands die. This means a shift of resources, and that usually means war.
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Re: Arctic sea ice likely to hit record low next week

Post by legionnair »

Growing areas of arable land will extend further North increasing production of wheat and the like.


This is a very wrong statement, those lands are almost all muskeg and permafrost. As those melt release millions of tons of methane further destroying our atmosphere. It also makes the ground in that area unable to support vegetation. I will try and find the TED talk that has video footage showing this horrible effect of a warming climate.
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Re: Arctic sea ice likely to hit record low next week

Post by Mr. Flibble »

legionnair wrote:Growing areas of arable land will extend further North increasing production of wheat and the like.


This is a very wrong statement, those lands are almost all muskeg and permafrost. As those melt release millions of tons of methane further destroying our atmosphere. It also makes the ground in that area unable to support vegetation. I will try and find the TED talk that has video footage showing this horrible effect of a warming climate.
I think you misunderstand. I am not saying climate change is good for the majority of people. I am saying that on the whole it is not as catastrophic for Canada specifically. There are lots of things that will accelerate it. When Greenland melts a whole host of bad things will happen, and the albedo will change as well.

The arable land will increase further North, just not all through the North.
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Re: Arctic sea ice likely to hit record low next week

Post by FalcoColumbarius »

glenn wrote:I'll back down.

Maybe Kona dog has it right - he has no illusions that there is any hope for us. It's depressing though. ....

....Party on.
I have illusions. Party on.

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Re: Arctic sea ice likely to hit record low next week

Post by nxski »

glenn wrote:I'm sorry, I don't mean to turn this personal - I think I am picking on you.

The point is, you don't have to turn "hardcore environmental" to make more than a token difference. There are a thousand things you can do besides giving up your car. It's probably not even your biggest contributor. Good for you for not always needing the newest electronics. Stop eating fast food (I don't know that you do). Almost everyone can drive less. And so on.

As far as your chosen profession - we face the same conundrum. How can you justify making anything? I for one, focus on high quality work, and highly functional designs. When I renovate a home, I focus on making improvements of efficiency, and try to remain modest in scope. It's a great niche to be in. Bigger is not always better. People now think that they need things like two fridges, or a kitchen off their kitchen, or industrial sized kitchens - but they don't.

I like to imagine a hypothetical future that not only provides us the benefits of modernity, but perhaps has a new focus on aesthetics and cottage industry, hand made locally based industries for hard goods. Don't get me wrong, I love industry and the improvements to quality of life it offers, but we need to back away from the rampant industrial model we have now. You know, expensive, hand made items to be passed on and bought once in a lifetime, rather than cheap, crappy ikea furnishings that have to be thrown away every time you move them. One way to make this come about - stop feeding the bear that's rampaging through the village. Support local industry, even when it costs more. There is no better way to cast your vote than how you spend your dollars. I'm a case in point that there is a resurgence of support for the manufacturing middle class.
Nothing wrong with having lofty goals.
Don't worry, I don't take this personally. Actually, although you've backed down, I agree with this post completely. You can do everything here without making sacrifices and this is exactly the way I WANT to live. I like to live in small spaces, I like to buy used electronics when possible or I buy the fanicest, coolest looking most environmentally friendly appliances. I do eat fast food on occasion (well, quite a bit this trip in my quest for wifi) but I certainly don't enjoy it as much as organic and healthy food so even if I'm not willing to spend my money for the sake of being green all the time I do spend it a lot of the time on food that serves the same purpose because it makes me feel good.
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