Extreme cold

[kamil]

Hi all,

I think you Canadians know the most about winter and cold, so I would like to ask, If you can say, what modifications are needed.
It does not have to be just for Delica, but generaly for diesel powered 4x4.

I have in mind some winter expeditions in similar condition like you have in winter.

Thank you very much.

[FalcoColumbarius]

As far as Winter expeditions goes, I take it you won't be camping near a power outlet, so that rules out a block heater. What many truckers do if they are sleeping in their rig in sub zero conditions is set the idle to 1,100 RPM and leave the engine running. One thing I have in my wagon is a timer that will start the van every three hours and run the engine for 12 minutes. I would also recommend purchasing a minus fifty eiderdown military sleeping bag. What many people will do in the north with a frozen vehicle is wrap the vehicle with a tarpaulin and place a tiger torch beneath. with this method one must take great care not to set your vehicle on fire, so you can't just walk away while you are doing this, nor do you want to place the torch too close to rubber things, like tyres or hoses.

The coldest I have ever camped in is -25. The persons to talk to would be Fred Venne of the Mighty Yeti, or Fire Song.

Falco.

[Mr. Pistachio]

Extreme cold for you or your truck?

Truck: OIL OIL OIL If your are to start your truck in -5 and down 0W-40 is a must, otherwise your oil freeze and become like caramel! Some good diesel additives. Hope you have the dual battery setup. On very cold night just let the truck run. It will cost you around 5-7 Liters for 12 hours. A Cardboard box to put in front of your rad because when it's really cold, your truck will never heat up. (Old trucker trick - Cut's airflow to rad and allows normal running temp of engine). There's also some fancier fabric and stuff but cardboard box is the easiest.

You: A lot of clothing in ziploc bag to cut humidity. -50 sleeping bags for when your truck is not running overnight. Nafta burner because propane or natural gas freeze under -5 I think. Water: Boil two liters of water before going to bed. Put it into 1 liter Nalgene that are wrapped around blue foam mattress (homemade kinda Thermos), Keeps your feet warn when going to bed, Ensure you have non frozen water when you wake up. Socks: you'll need many pairs because as soon as you get humidity in your boots you'll freeze your feets. During winter camping I usually change pairs 4 times a day otherwise I have cold feets. Layers of course, many of them.

That's what I can share for now!!!

Have a nice trip

[Mr. Pistachio]

Extreme cold for you or your truck?

Truck: OIL OIL OIL If your are to start your truck in -5 and down 0W-40 is a must, otherwise your oil freeze and become like caramel! Some good diesel additives. Hope you have the dual battery setup. On very cold night just let the truck run. It will cost you around 5-7 Liters for 12 hours. A Cardboard box to put in front of your rad because when it's really cold, your truck will never heat up. (Old trucker trick - Cut's airflow to rad and allows normal running temp of engine). There's also some fancier fabric and stuff but cardboard box is the easiest.

You: A lot of clothing in ziploc bag to cut humidity. -50 sleeping bags for when your truck is not running overnight. Nafta burner because propane or natural gas freeze under -5 I think. Water: Boil two liters of water before going to bed. Put it into 1 liter Nalgene that are wrapped around blue foam mattress (homemade kinda Thermos), Keeps your feet warn when going to bed, Ensure you have non frozen water when you wake up. Socks: you'll need many pairs because as soon as you get humidity in your boots you'll freeze your feets. During winter camping I usually change pairs 4 times a day otherwise I have cold feets. Layers of course, many of them.

That's what I can share for now!!!

Have a nice trip

And don't forget the lock de-icer. It always sucks when your locks are iced and you need to blow hot air into it for 15 minutes and your lips are stuck to the metal of the door.

[TardisDeli]

Hi Kamil, I know some northern BC guys actually bought gasoline Delicas instead of Diesel, due to problems cold starting diesel when unable to plug in to electricity to keep engine warm. Make sure your 2 pin temperature sensor switch is good (buy a new spare one just in case) as this is what tells your glow plugs how long to preheat. Make sure your engine starts easily (get a tune up) before the cold weather. Use an additive with a cetane booster. Block heater install helps as it keeps the oil warm, but even better is a lower radiator heater (it keeps the coolant circulating and warm... but is useless if installed on upper radiator hose as heat rises so it does not warm the coolant below it). Keep the windshield wipers off the glass when not driving (stand them out like bugs). Don't dilute the windshield washer fluid (and add alcohol if needed). Tyres get square if left parked in same position for too long. Door seals freeze so you can't open the door (especially the sliding door). Get a good battery (I use a big size, 31 series, with 1000 amps, to give lots of CCA Cold Cranking Amps). Clean your battery terminals, and tighten the terminals (metal shrinks in cold). Travel with friends who have big batteries to jump start you.

For you, do not sweat, do not wear anything cotton (not denim jeans, not cotton underwear). If you will be away for a weekend in cold with no heat, consider a waterproof sweatproof layer next to the skin (think plastic bag) so that your sweat does not soak the clothing...used by ski expeditions.

Christine.

[kamil]

I am worried just about car.
Lowest temperature when we were camping was -25C overnight and car was fine. We have Eberspacher air heater, it was ON for few hours but at lowest settings. So I can imagine if it is in highest settings there will be no problem. And we have very good sleeping bags, so even without heater we can survive.

We have -20C in Czech very often during the winter, so I am not worried about this kind of cold.
I am more worried if the temperature goes below -30C or even -40C. I was thinking to fit Webasto water heater to help engine with cold start. What about pre-heated fuel filter? I am thinking to put batteries inside/ the safe one/, so they will not suffer during the night/ I have split charge system/. How the tyres cope with such a low temperature? What about fuel? Do you put petrol in it like some people do in Czech/ 50ldiesel-3lpetrol/
I was trying to find some info on internet about winter expeditions, but I did not have any luck.

[TardisDeli]

HI Kamil,

All these problems are why some northern BC people who can NOT keep the delica inside a heated garage AND plugged into house electricity, have bought gas engines instead of diesel. Gasoline is the same name as Petrol.

L300 is NOT easy to keep warm in the winter, as the fuel tanks and radiators are so exposed to cold air. These vehicles were advertised For the Outdoor Player, not for arctic expeditions. I suggest you not try to make this your arctic vehicle.

The russian club have YouTube videos of L300 in snow, but they also drive through deep rivers and over huge rocks, they deliberately ruin and break their L300s while laughing for the camera, they use the L300 for fun not for a vehicle to save your life.

In vancouver, where most of the L300 live, is warm in winter, we rarely go below 0 celcius for more than 3 days. Calgary has colder winter, but they get sudden warm days with Chinooks so temperature is 10 degrees (many Calgary people have visited our home); Whitehorse in the Yukon has some L300s, 3 of them have visited our home, they use block heaters in the daytime but they keep them inside heated garages at night. Eastern Canada is colder, Manitoba (Firesong) or Northern Ontario and Quebec are colder than here, but none of them have extended super cold temperature (global warming is coming).

All heat methods use electricity, so you must run your engine constantly or plug into house electricity. Solar power does not give enough electricity.

In general, 12 volt electricity can NOT generate enough power to heat well. 12 volt hair dryers are useless. For example, my 12 volt kettle will boil one litre of water in 25 minutes.... but on 110 AC House electricity it boils in 3 minutes.

HEATERS:
Preheated fuel filter helps, but it only works on the fuel that is INSIDE the filter, the problem is the fuel in the tanks, and all the fuellines from the tank to the filter, where the diesel gets so thick with cold it gels (goes semi solid).

For the fuellines, You can get an inline fuel line heater, which is just 2 pieces of metal of 10 centrimetres in length which you wrap around a section of fuel line (usually under the seat, in front of the battery on L300) which www. Plantdrive.ca sells to use with vegetable oil systems as they gel at about 5 degrees celcius.

For the fuel tanks, you can buy magnetic heater pads to stick on the outside of the fuel tank. Also can buy magnetic stick on heater pads for the engine block. These are about 10 cm square, and are not very effective as they are only 12 volt, and can fall off and get lost in the road when driving in snow.

Yes, an water coolant heater works well, we use it on boats, as it keeps the coolant warm, and circulating with convection of the heated coolant rising to heat the coolant above it. But it uses HUGE electricity. Coolant is the water in the radiator which circulates to cool or heat the engine, and at starting on the L300 is controlled by the 2 prong switch for the temperature sensor (that is why I recommend a spare on hand, otherwise you cannot start in cold).

Other things one can do if NO electricity, is park it outside, but drain the oil and coolant into big metal cooking pots. Take them inside overnight, keep them warm beside a wood stove in the pots, then pour them back into the engine just before starting. You obviously do not want them too hot, because the temperature difference of hot liquid into cold metal could crack metal.

When refilling diesel engines in winter when driving in cold areas, we do not turn off the engine, just leave engine running.

BATTERY:
A fully charged battery usually does not freeze, but ask the manufacturer for details of how cold they guarantee). Electric battery blankets can be put over the batteries (but now you have a endless circle of the battery needs to make more power to replace the power that the electric blanket took ... there is NO infinite power, at some point the battery will die).

To generate enough power to keep all these electric heaters you must keep the engine running, the battery cannot give enough power to keep ALL these heaters working.

If you add the amperage required to run all these heaters, you will kill the battery faster than you can recharge it. WE use 110 AC here, you use 220 AC, so I dont have the actual amount for you, but look at each item, find the amps, add all those amps together, then calculate how many amps your battery can give out WHILE it is also recharging itself... Problem ... the battery only charges to about 80 percent of its power (a safety design) and power output dies at about 70 percent empty, and battery is ruined at 50 percent empty and often cannot be recharged. You need a Deep Discharge battery to run a constant lower energy use item like a heater NOT a starting battery which is designed for a few seconds of high energy use.

My Accessory Battery (install like on a small sailboat) for camping is separate from the starting battery. The accesory battery charges while driving, but is wired isolated from the starting battery. I run electric blankets and reading lights and fridge when camping, when it dies during the night from overuse, then my starting battery is still safe. My batteries are HUGE, each one is the same physical size in centimetres as 2 normal Delica 24 series batteries. I have my accesory battery inside (illegal and dangerous, but it was my best choice) beside my rear heater, so it gets some heat from the engine compartment for a while after we stop driving, and is not outside in the cold. A battery risks explosion or emit deadly gas while charging, so I NEVER charge it while sleeping there. Like a sailboat, You must install the battery in a separate airtight box, with a drain vent to the outside for gas emission (use a see thru plastic pipe thru a hole drilled to the outside).

Never NEVER put gasoline or petrol or methanol or alcohol or other COMBUSTIBLE liquids in diesel, yes it will help prevent the gel of fuel, but it can ruin the engine pistons and injectors as the explosion during use is very different from the compression created by diesel engines.

L300 deisel engines need lots of power to start, a gasoline car cannot give you enough battery power to start in cold, you need another diesel engine that is running with a big battery to give you enough CCA Cold Cranking Amps. We know the L300 uses 225 CCA in a warm heated garage, have never tested it in the cold.

WHERE:
Why are you asking, where do you plan to go? If it just in Czech or Europe, to the mountains, for a weekend, and you can plug in to electricity AND park in a hotel heated garage you will be OK. But if you intend to park more than 8 hours in the cold outdoors with no electricity, then I would suggest not. Why risk damaging your beautiful L300, use it for what it was designed to do ... play not risk death.

Sorry to sound so discouraging, but it is not easy to keep the L300 diesel warm in winter due to its shape. I volunteer for Search and Rescue, so I know the dangers of cold. If you can't start the engine, now you risk your life walking in the cold, and you risk the lives of volunteers who search for you.

People whose opinions might be useful, and you could PM Private message to are Firesong (Manitoba), Pedro (Williams Lake, BC), Mr Pistachio (Ottawa and Quebec), Erebus (Calgary).

Regards, Christine.

[Spearo]

Always tons of great info that I appreciate Christine, thank you.

I froze the Deli hard a few times and started it with a boost from my gas cars, no problem.

L300 deisel engines need lots of power to start, a gasoline car cannot give you enough battery power to start in cold, you need another diesel engine that is running with a big battery to give you enough CCA Cold Cranking Amps. .

[kamil]

Hi Christine,
thank you very much for all the information.
We have L400 and I definitely do not want to ruin it. Delica is our "home on wheels"
As you know from my post here in forum, we are going for trip through Russia to Australia next year. What I have in mind is our trip to Canada and future trips to Siberia.
We love winter, snow so we would like to enjoy winter camping in Canada, Russia and also Scandinavia. We have spent a lot of money to modify our Delica so I was wonder how to prepare her for winter camping. We never stay in hotels, so no chance to have electricity plug.

Thanks again for great info.
Kamil&Helena

[BproofOG]

When I saw this post titled “extreme cold” I got all excited but then realized that Vancouver and surrounding area has more Delicas than anywhere else in Canada and not to be rude but cold, true cold conditions are not found down there. Northern BC and Alberta, NWT and YUKON that is real “extreme cold” so far I have not found a way (I want or can afford to use) to keep my delica from being only a seasonal van in the yukon. We have a few -50 plus days every winter and average temps are not favorable to the delicas or any older diesel vehicle. I met Fred Venne of the Mighty Yeti when they pass backed through Whitehorse after being in Tuktoyuktuk – I would agree He knows COLD!

[jessef]

I was thinking to fit Webasto water heater to help engine with cold start. What about pre-heated fuel filter

If you use one of the coolant pre-heaters and have a heated fuel filter (where the heated coolant would pass through), along with battery blankets (or batteries inside where it's warmer), then you would be able to start at low temps.

The other thing that you can benefit from is to throw away the stock glow plug system and install a manually operated one along with replacing the flimsy busbar and too small gauge wiring with at least 10-12 gauge wiring direct from the battery to the solenoid to each glow plug. That would ensure full power to each glow plug and no drain on cold small wires and the stock busbar.

[Profister]

Kamil,
As a member of delicaclub.ru you should read this thread with tons of ideas and technical information. You can also contact the member ce8ep who made a winter trip in a Space Gear with 3 other guys all the way to Barents Sea where the temperatures were -43C and below. I can email you his report with pictures in pdf format if you want; that will give you an idea what to expect.

[kamil]

Kamil,
As a member of delicaclub.ru you should read this thread with tons of ideas and technical information. You can also contact the member ce8ep who made a winter trip in a Space Gear with 3 other guys all the way to Barents Sea where the temperatures were -43C and below. I can email you his report with pictures in pdf format if you want; that will give you an idea what to expect.

Thanks and yes please.

[Profister]

Done.

[FredVenne]

Good evening Kamil!

You got a lot of very good information so far on how to keep your Delica "warm". Here's a few extra things that I would like to share with you.

- I would suggest strongly to insulate your windows with aluminium bubble wrap material. Cut the material to fit the side windows and leave it there Also don't forget the front side, windshield and back windows during the nights. It will keep the heat longer inside the van.
- A webasto would also be a very good asset. There are two types; the one you were talking about that will pre-heat your water coolant, but there is also a forced air heater that is connected directly to the diesel tank, has an air intake and an exaust outside (very important). We spent several nights in the range of -40celcius and we manage to keep a comfortable 19celcius inside the van. And it will only use 1 or 2 liters of diesel a night. The only downside is that they are extremely expensive. A brand new unit would be in the range of 2500$ to 2800$CAD. But a life saver! Because if your engine ever stop and you are stuck in the middle of nowhere, as long as you have diesel in the tank and batteries... you can last for hours.
- Talking about batteries, some member mentionned to have a second battery, I would strongly suggest to have an independent 2 batteries system inside your van and most importantly, deep cycle batteries. With that you could run your webasto for 12hrs
- Another great item that did save our lives a few times is a Honda 1000W generator. Very small, efficient (will run full throttle for 8hrs)
- With that generator, you can now run your block heater and you can also add an oil pan heater (75W) and it will make a big difference at the start.
- Some member were also talking about battery warmer, indeed they are another very good item to have if you go where it's going to be cold, they are cheap, run low watts and do a very good job. But if you have an extra 2 batteries inside your van, you could discard the battery warmer, although, better be safe then sorry. I do have one and I did used it a couple times when we got -50celcius. 2hrs before starting the van, we plugged the block heater, the oil pan heater and the battery warmer (the one at the front), and the van started rough (3-4 crank), but it started.
- It was also mentioned to put a piece of cardboard in front of the radiator for the fan, yes yes yes! And if I would do another trip like this, I would definitely have something that would also protect the cold air from getting underneath the van, but make shure to keep holes for the other three radiators. We drove at 80-90km/h at temp -40 to -50 and let me tell you this, their is no heat inside, the steering wheel, the brakes and gaz pedals get stiff! Make shure that wherever you go, don't leave your van without heat inside (below-40 and more) because plastic break at -40... trust me... it breaks and -50... everything breaks!

Those are the few things that I think of sharing with you and the last one that I would say is probably the most important... if you have maintained your vehicle very well and I mean very well, you should not have any problem.

Enjoy your trip and please post some photos.

You should have a look at our Facebook page and look at the photos of our little Yeti, "Mighty Yeti Adventurers".

Fred and Kim