Odometer Rollback

[delicabits]

the original post question whether dealers or importers are really finding all these low klms vehicles. it has been mentioned that it is a problem in japan thus the new regulations regarding documentation of distances on shaken certificates. proof was provided through a link showing most 94 vehicles with over 100K. it was also mention that vehicles with high klms have appeared in australia with a lot less klms. quite simply it appears it does happens in japan and more times than some want to believe.

some on this site seem very good at trying to twist written words around to suit their thinking or maybe just to try and stir up more debates. from what has been written by a few members I doubt very much if they have spent much time in japan if any or ventured out of major cities like tokyo and osaka.

[Kenny]

I do conclude that many of the vehicles we get in Canada have had their odometers rolled back. Even if this is only a possiblilty, I'm surprised by the apparent reluctance to accept this possiblilty. Acknowledgement is the first step toward further investigation and possible remedies.

Mileage claims carry a lot of weight in the assessment of a vehicle and are important enough that we have legislation to protect their integrity. In my opinion, just because the imported Japanese car market is small, we should not allow the importance of mileage claims to be discounted and we certainly should not deny the possibility of possible fraudlent business practise, or cleverly justify why the majority of older Japanese cars imported into Canada have less than average expected mileage.

[Green1]

Acknowledgement is the first step toward further investigation and possible remedies.

it is REALLY hard to fix a problem that doesn't exist....
A witch hunt won't help solve anything...

[mararmeisto]

Acknowledgement is the first step toward further investigation and possible remedies.

it is REALLY hard to fix a problem that doesn't exist....
A witch hunt won't help solve anything...

Agree. What are you going to do? Try to get a refund if you find your import has had its odometer rolled back?

Rollback is only really a problem if the engine/drivetrain is in considerably worse condition that indicated on the dash. Talking with one of the importers, he's seen vehicles with low kms that looked like they'd been abused/rode hard, and he's seen others that had over 200k or 300k that were practically pristine.

If you're really worried about get a vehicle that is lying about its usage, go to your local car lot and buy a new car. They generally only have about 7 or 12km on them (depending on the length of the assembly line, distance from plant to ship, ship to jetty, jetty to truck, truck to lot). Otherwise I think this thread is getting a little tiresome and needlessly instigative.

[Kenny]

Otherwise I think this thread is getting a little tiresome and needlessly instigative.

If it is tiresome and instigative, then I suggest don't read it. Otherwise if people are still interested in making comments on the topic, and if the discussion is civilized and tolerant, then it should continue until everyone has had their say. Isn't that the idea here?

[Chewy]

It is tiresome. It's lost any further perceptible value in being investigative when everybody who has imported a vehicle on this site gave you their opinion, rather unanimously stating that A. it's not as common as you initially assumed and B. that it does still happen, so be wary and observe the actual condition and compare to mileage because Caveat Emptor is pretty much the best practice when making any purchase. Yet you insist that those that willingly provided you with this info are being naive in their reluctance to admit that the situation is in dire need of attention. Admittedly it occurs, but simply taking a list of cars, and seeing that most are over 100k really doesn't raise any red flags for me, most cars at auction ARE over 100k, which is what green1 was aiming at.

Rules and regulations can only do so much to protect you, if you're that worried about it, be entitled, get a good exporter who will scrutinize the hell out of what you're buying and be sharp about it, the government certainly isn't going to help you, the regs are barely open enough to let them into the country to begin with anyhow.

If you have any concerns about legislation in japan regarding this, it already exists, contact JUMVEA, or Japanese Used Motor Vehicle Exporters Association.

[delicabits]

Acknowledgement is the first step toward further investigation and possible remedies.

it is REALLY hard to fix a problem that doesn't exist....
A witch hunt won't help solve anything...

Agree. What are you going to do? Try to get a refund if you find your import has had its odometer rolled back?

a check on the australian site has a thread where one dealer was caught out and paid something like $5-8K back to the purchaser. definitely worth following up if you find your klms have been rolled back.

[jessef]

zzzz

Too many threads with the same talk.

I feel for the new member who signed up in the past week to see all this.

You can take the half a dozen 'new within the past week' threads regarding odometer rollbacks, shaken, buying at auction and driving conditions in Japan, and the other dozen threads in the past few years that have had the same discussions and condense it all into a small paragraph.

[delicabits]

zzzz

Too many threads with the same talk.

I feel for the new member who signed up in the past week to see all this.

i'm one of the new members and fell into this. any reason why the mods havent just rolled them into one thread? can it be done?

[jessef]

i'm one of the new members and fell into this. any reason why the mods havent just rolled them into one thread? can it be done?

You mean selective deleting and editing ? That's an argument on it's own.

What you have here in the past 2 weeks is paranoia about false mileage claims, importing yourself and the potential to loose your money, who to trust if anyone as a buyer and of course the monthly-pick-on-dealer-x.

These few hot headed topics pop up, I would guestimate, two or three times a year that I've witnessed over the past 5 years being active in 7 different JDM forums.

It generates some bruhaha, I've been guilty of poking the dead horse myself, but dissipates as quickly as it fires up people's emotions and paranoia.

Out of all the posts, it's pretty simple to pick out the few genuine, informative comments and form your own opinions.

[delicabits]

guess it would be a bit hard to put it all into any sensible order. probably all in one thread as part one part 2 part 3 etc and then leave part 4 as the one for discussion if there is anything left to discuss.

[Erebus]

So many people forget some obvious stuff in this whole discussion about rollbacks.

1) really high mileage vehicles, like the 2000 with 400,000 km Stiful mentioned, will never make it to being 15 years old and eligible to come to Canada.

2) They are used vehicles. It is always a gamble. But then, so is a new car, just less so.

3) Of course I want a lower mileage/better condition vehicle. Who wouldn't?

4) Mileage in itself is less relevant than the type of mileage. One of my previous vehicles only saw 20,000 km per year, but it was all highway, so relatively low wear compared to rush hour commuting.

5) Maintenance means lots. We all know people with 10 year old vehicles that are in pristine condition, and other guy's ride is only 2 years old and thrashed.

6) What comes here to Canada is not representative of what is available in Japan. With the cost of shipping and compliance, why not buy the above average condition one?

7) Doing lots of maintenance with compliance (belts, rad, etc.). When you buy ANY used vehicle, isn't it pretty usual to do a bunch of stuff, so that you know where you are starting from?

Conclusion: it all boils down to: trust and gamble on your own skills and knowledge, or trust and gamble on someone else's. I don't know enough about the Japanese car market to trust my own skills, so I trusted someone else's.

My Delica has only 24,000 km on it. And I'm absolutely positive it was accurate. My importer, and my usual garage here, and the detailer all said it was the best condition vehicle they had ever seen. My garage (Kirkham in Calgary) said that if they had been told it was a new car with 24 km on it, they would have believed it. There was zero wear and tear, and I really mean zero. For example, the driver's seat showed no signs of wear, which it does now. There was no rust, no dents. All evidence was consistent.

It now has 68,000. I've had it 28 months. I doubled the mileage in the first year. It definitely shows wear and tear now. But it gets used, although not abused.

[Kenny]

a check on the australian site has a thread where one dealer was caught out and paid something like $5-8K back to the purchaser. definitely worth following up if you find your klms have been rolled back

I agree that the best advice so far has come from the postings reccomending commmon sense, Cavaet Emptor and that each vehicle must be judged on it's own merits. There has also been some great tips on what to look for in assessing a used vehicle.

But if the above is true about the Aus dealer, and similar things are happening here, I'm inclined to continue to press the point. If anything untoward is happening on a regular basis with dealers mileage claims, the first step to any remedy is awareness, in my opinion. I just don't see this possibility as an insignificant issue.

I respect of course if it's already been well hashed out on here and people are just tired of the topic and willing to accept things as they are, then there will be no more comments and the issue will disappear.

An interesting point about Japan, for what it's worth. A Japanese friend once told me that she cheated in university in Japan and that it was very common and almost widely expected. I gathered too that it was not a secret, but just widely accepted. For what it's worth.

[Green1]

If anything untoward is happening on a regular basis with dealers mileage claims, the first step to any remedy is awareness, in my opinion. I just don't see this possibility as an insignificant issue.

Do you have any proof of anything happening on a regular basis in Canada?

If yes, show the proof. If no, DROP IT!

And the fact that most delicas arrive 15 years old with less than 150,000km on them does NOT qualify as proof.

[marsgal42]

It generates some bruhaha, I've been guilty of poking the dead horse myself, but dissipates as quickly as it fires up people's emotions and paranoia.

This is the internet. We beat the damp spot where the dead horse used to be.

FWIW, I think this whole thread is much ado about nothing. Major odometer messing-with is obvious. Minor is not (and may not make any difference). Caveat emptor!

...laura