Odometer Rollback

[Kenny]

Hi,

I've been considering buying a Delica and this site has provided a wealth of great information that I'm certain is very accurate. There is one thing that I find perplexing with each and every vehicle that I have seen for sale so far. I am referring to their advertised claims of rare, low rates of mileage. I can only conclude that somewhere along the line, it is common accepted practise for Delicas imported from Japan to have their odometers rolled back.

Considering that the established average mileage for a vehicle is 20,000 kilometers per year, a 1994 vehicle would be expected to have 300,000 kilometers on the odometer. And in many cases it would be expected to have more. Of course on occassion vehicles with less mileage could be expected as well, but I cannot believe that importers have been so fortunate as to procure nothing but vehicles with extraordinarily low mileage.

I recognize that many vehicles with 300,000 plus kilometers, especially with a diesel engine, may have plenty of life left, but I am confused about the apparent acceptance of false advertising claims. There are regulations against such things and we the consumers are the ones that benefit from such regulations.

Am I barking up the wrong tree with these observations, or perhpas repeating something that has already been considered and concluded here already, or does anyone think that this issue might need closer examination?

Thanks.

[Green1]

Considering that the established average mileage for a vehicle is 20,000 kilometers per year,

maybe in Canada, but imagine a country where you can't park your vehicle at home, can't drive to the store, and basically have nowhere to go.
In Japan the average mileage for a vehicle is nowhere near 20,000km per year, in fact even in Canada I'm told it's only 15,000, in Japan it's closer to 5,000

All the people who say the odometers are routinely rolled back are saying it not from any evidence, but simply because they don't understand that Japan is a different country with different conditions. A vehicle in North America is almost a necessity, in Japan it is a completely unnecessary luxury used more as a status symbol than as a means of transportation.

[Paule]

I just read that a 2004 Transport Canada survey said the average car in Canada was driven about 16,000km a year - I would've guessed 20,000. If these are Canadian numbers, then I would bet that Japanese numbers would be significantly lower, though I can't find specifics to back this up.

From what I understand cars are expensive to own in Japan and it's cheaper to just get rid of an old one than it is to keep around. I don't know if that is based on mileage or manufacture year.
Someone posted something on this just recently. There was a good argument to take the roll-back side with a grain of salt.

I wouldn't be surprised if a few odometers were rolled back, but to believe that they all are seems a little naive. If you are concerned about a specific vehicle, there are plenty of tell-tale signs that can be used to judge it's kms.

peas.

EDIT:
Green1 can type a lot faster than me.

[Green1]

From what I understand cars are expensive to own in Japan and it's cheaper to just get rid of an old one than it is to keep around. I don't know if that is based on mileage or manufacture year.

Vehicles in Japan have to pass a very rigorous safety inspection ("shaken") after the first 3 years, and every 2 years thereafter, it can often cost a few thousand dollars to do all the work to get a vehicle through the inspection. Now realize that one of the biggest motivators of vehicle ownership in Japan is as a status-symbol, and you realize that a 15 year old vehicle isn't much of a status symbol, now look at auction prices in Japan for 14 year old vehicles (the prices for the 15 year old ones are driven up by what WE pay for them) and you'll see why they get rid of them, it just isn't worth spending a few thousand dollars to get a vehicle through shaken if it's only worth $2000 or less total. You're better off just to upgrade.
In fact our 15 year rule prevents us from getting most of the best examples simply because other countries snatch them up long before we get to them.

[delicabits]

if rollbacks were not as common as some say why are there big signs at the auctions warning against it and why would the govt enforce registering of distance on shaken? does canada, australia, nz or usa have the distance recorded anywhere.

green1 wrote: Now realize that one of the biggest motivators of vehicle ownership in Japan is as a status-symbol, and you realize that a 15 year old vehicle isn't much of a status symbol

don't know if it would be status or just wanting the latest thing. convenience is probably another reason. my understanding is japanese don't like hassles and if something is newer less chance of breaking down.

[Green1]

if rollbacks were not as common as some say why are there big signs at the auctions warning against it and why would the govt enforce registering of distance on shaken? does canada, australia, nz or usa have the distance recorded anywhere.

distance is recorded on initial registration in a province in Canada, it is also optionally recorded at each renewal.
Why is there a warning? it's all about liability, it's the same reason your iron tells you not to iron your clothes while on your body, not because lots of people do it, but because they don't want to be liable for the one that tries!

[delicabits]

if rollbacks were not as common as some say why are there big signs at the auctions warning against it and why would the govt enforce registering of distance on shaken? does canada, australia, nz or usa have the distance recorded anywhere.

distance is recorded on initial registration in a province in Canada, it is also optionally recorded at each renewal.
Why is there a warning? it's all about liability, it's the same reason your iron tells you not to iron your clothes while on your body, not because lots of people do it, but because they don't want to be liable for the one that tries!

the warning is about having membership to auction canceled if caught and is written in both japanese and english, so maybe know reference to liability. canada has the first time registered but no real follow up like japan where it is recorded every 1 or 2 years or possible change of ownership.

[Meanman]

In the lower mainland your odometer reading is recorded every year or two when you aircare. also anytime you sell a vehicle the mileage is recorded. A friend of mine worked in Japan for a couple years at the Disneyland in Tokyo I think. He said he only put on about 2500 kms/year. He said the public transit system is so that a vehicle is really about luxury and status. He said when he first saw my van that alot of "A" listers would arrive in Delica's, chauffered of course, to clubs and what not.

[Profister]

in fact even in Canada I'm told it's only 15,000

This sounds more like the average body temperature in the hospital; my annual mileage is close to 40,000 km and this is just my routine commute to work and some camping mileage.

[delicabits]

In the lower mainland your odometer reading is recorded every year or two when you aircare. also anytime you sell a vehicle the mileage is recorded. A friend of mine worked in Japan for a couple years at the Disneyland in Tokyo I think. He said he only put on about 2500 kms/year. He said the public transit system is so that a vehicle is really about luxury and status. He said when he first saw my van that alot of "A" listers would arrive in Delica's, chauffered of course, to clubs and what not.

in the cities like tokyo or osaka a car might not get used as often but there are expressways running nearly the full length of japan. your friend probably means 2wd delicas although that is hard to imagine

[ShaneA]

in fact even in Canada I'm told it's only 15,000

This sounds more like the average body temperature in the hospital; my annual mileage is close to 40,000 km and this is just my routine commute to work and some camping mileage.

I'd have to agree, that seems pretty low. I put 20,000km/year on my Mazda 3 on average and I didn't even use it for commuting to work. That was just a few trips to the North Shore each week to pick up my kids, driving to see my girlfriend and trips to Whistler or to Bellingham to visit my parents.

I can believe that most Delicas aren't rolled back for all of the reasons others have listed. Japan is a much smaller country than Canada, everything is much closer together. Also, Delicas are more likely to be driven only on weekends.

Shane

[Kenny]

Interesting points of consideration regarding the mileage issue, thank you. Lots of logical speculation, but nothing definitive it seems.

In my experience, car leasing companies in Canada base their mileage allotment calculations on 20,000 kilometers per year. I'll bet that they have some research evidence to support that this is the accurate average yearly mileage for a Canadian vehicle. I don't know if vehicles are leased in Japan or not, but if so, it might be interesting to know what the companies there consider average expected mileage for one of their leased vehicles. You can bet that it would be based in some accurate research.

[Green1]

In my experience, car leasing companies in Canada base their mileage allotment calculations on 20,000 kilometers per year.

Only if you are willing to pay extra! their default is usually only about 12,000 (but many people go over)

[Blackberry]

I can only conclude that somewhere along the line, it is common accepted practise for Delicas imported from Japan to have their odometers rolled back.

Considering that the established average mileage for a vehicle is 20,000 kilometers per year, a 1994 vehicle would be expected to have 300,000 kilometers on the odometer.

Your foundation of the argument is flawed. Flawed because it is based on the assumption that a society that is culturally, geographically and demographically very different than NA would have a similar "avg. annual kms driven" stat. As well you seem to assume Delicas that land in Canada for sale would have odo readings that would reflect the Japanese annual avg. stat. For this latter assumption, I would think that dealers here (or any importer) would tend to import Delicas having Kms. lower than the avg. of all similar-year Delicas in Japan because they'd be trying to cherry-pick & import only the most marketable they can get top $ for. Really, the same would apply to anyone importing, not just dealers. When I imported my Delica I waited and passed on bidding on many other higher-kms ones that came up. I waited for a relatively low kms one to come available and it eventuially did (I was also betting that odo rollback is relatively rare occurence and therefore wouldn't end-up with one of those).

Regarding your 20K kms/yr stat. I don't doubt that stat is accurate for here but there's always outlyers to the bell curve...perhaps the Delicas we see land here are a representation of the outlyers: For example my "daily driver" is '92 sold-in-NA Mazda PU with 143K kms on it at the moment. So avg./yr = approx 8400. Why doesn't it have the 340,000 (17yrs@20K/yr) your stat says it should? Not due to its' odo being rolled-back (it hasn't) but because it only had 10K/yr avg on it when I bought it (63K in '98) and because I use public transport to commute to work (as I would guess do many more Japanese per capita than NAs) 6mo/yr, ride my MC the other 6mo., drive my Delica for road trips, ride my bicycle and walk for other short trips. My 16 yr. old Delica arrived with 76K kms on it and it was obvious looking closely at it that was the true distance it had travelled in its' life. Among many other indicators, If I'd flipped it over I could've eaten off the underside of it when it arrived.

[marsgal42]

A car that has spent most of its life sitting around not running will have problems of its own. Ultra-low mileage Delicas are sometimes viewed with suspicion as a result. Others are right: Japan's car culture is completely different from Canada's and the sheer lack of anywhere to go (plus lots of other travel options) means the Japanese drive their Delicas lots less than us Canadians do. Have you looked at a map of Japan lately? It's about the size of California, with one big island, a bunch of smaller ones, and lots of mountains.

I still maintain that documentation, particularly service history, is the best way to approach this. If the numbers look right in the paperwork, they probably are.

FWIW, Gumdrop's Japanese owners did about 6,500 km per year. I've been doing about 15,000 since I took delivery. Gumdrop isn't a daily driver. The very concept of a Delica as a daily driver in Japan is unrealistic.

...laura