Second Time Injection Pump Replacement. Culprit: WVO (?)

[after oil]

CCAuto is replacing a brand new pump i had installed in April 2009 @158000km. Ive driven 50,000 WVO kilometres since then. It replaced the stock pump that was maybe weak before i got it, i say so only because it was slightly weaker on WVO than diesel, until eventually it would work no more on WVO, then quit on diesel too. diagnosis: worn and broken interior parts (vanes or paddles?)
the first time the pump weakened was on the return from Mexico. on that trip i encountered plenty of sketchy oil, and although i had a centrifuge i doubt i was cleaning it well enough. after the new pump was installed i only noticed the emerging weakness in Washington on the way back from my summer tour to Cali and Colorado. on that trip i only used filtered, 'fuged, or well settled oil. some was free some was paid for. there was a sketchy batch that i poured quite a few liters of into my tank on the way south. it was cloudier than what im used to and the seller insisted that it was fine and that it was rice bran oil or something is why its different. i only put in 10 gallons i think and then decided to stop. that was green eye auto and wvo conversion place in Eugene. i cannot prove anything and i have no intention to pursue that..
the wvo that i usually use is my own clean, screened, settled, heated, centrifuged, and filtered. it passes the pan test with flying colors, and does pretty god even just settled.
i decided i guess to have a used pump installed this time, in case i go through them alot...

[after oil]

This is the thread i started last time:
http://www.delica.ca/forum/slow-acceler ... -5191.html

according to the folks CCGlenn sends the IPs to, the camplate and the cam wheels inside the IP were completely destroyed.

this is caused by lack of lubrication. interesting because i run WVO which is a lubricant, and i added lubricant most of the time when running diesel on my trip to mexico

now according to glenn, water present in WVO can actually dry out the IP

here are my thoughts about that:
now i have a hunch that the camplate and wheels were worn when the van came from japan. i base this on the fact that i always had a slight power loss on WVO. that is, until i got a new IP. now the power is the same wvo or diesel. same for the other three WVO covnersions i have done

perhaps there was water present in WVO i collected along the way to mexico. or even the diesel i bough there.

i have driven somewhere around 20,000 KM on veggie oil, the bulk of that on the trip down and into mexico

i wonder if this discussion should move over to the wvo forum?

[mararmeisto]

Most usual culprit is water in the oil. Even just the slightest amount will, over time, be more destructive than anything else. I remember reading somewhere that WVO has a greater tendency to condensate water than diesel and if you're living in the moist dampness of the north-coast of BC, well, you could have a lot of condensation taking place AFTER you put the WVO into your tank.

[jessef]

Racor makes very good water separators for their fuel filters.

I had a 4601 heated filter head with water bowl separator and it performed very well in collecting water in the fuel I was using.

I wonder how much water made it through on your first IP ?

[PlantDrive]

Reviewed some of your install posts that I believe are this van?
Is the following correct?
Also some questions...

1) No in-tank heater.

2) Fram or similar filter with a coil of tubing around it, for a heated filter (no water separator, and not likely a water-absorbing filter media?) What is the part number of the fuel filter you have mostly used for your WVO?

3) Single glow plug fuel heater mounted into a block of aluminum with a simple in/out of coolant, as the only fuel-heating other than the filter?

4) 5/16" fuel supply line (how many feet long?)

5) Is it a looped return or return to tank?

6) Did the glow plug thermostat ever succeed in turning off the glow plug heater or have you always had to turn it off manually?

7) Did the fuel starving issues you had ever get sorted out?

[after oil]

Racor makes very good water separators for their fuel filters.

I had a 4601 heated filter head with water bowl separator and it performed very well in collecting water in the fuel I was using.

I wonder how much water made it through on your first IP ?

i have understood from my reading that the diesel filters wont separate out the suspended water in WVO. i am willing to upgrade filter and filter heating

Reviewed some of your install posts that I believe are this van?
Is the following correct?
Also some questions...

1) No in-tank heater.

2) Fram or similar filter with a coil of tubing around it, for a heated filter (no water separator, and not likely a water-absorbing filter media?) What is the part number of the fuel filter you have mostly used for your WVO?

3) Single glow plug fuel heater mounted into a block of aluminum with a simple in/out of coolant, as the only fuel-heating other than the filter?

4) 5/16" fuel supply line (how many feet long?)

5) Is it a looped return or return to tank?

6) Did the glow plug thermostat ever succeed in turning off the glow plug heater or have you always had to turn it off manually?

7) Did the fuel starving issues you had ever get sorted out?

1. true, no in tank heater
2. its a 25u water separating hydraulic oil filter, luberfiner # 1652
3. true. the block heats to 180F give or take
4.mostly 3/8" supply, 5/16" only after the heater. 3/8" is too big to fit on the IP in
5. return to tank
6. the glow plug heater only turns itself off in the summer, in the desert, after driving a while. i usually turn it off manually after a while.
7.this van has no fuel starving issues.

i still have the additional pump installed but im gonna remove it now.

Most usual culprit is water in the oil. Even just the slightest amount will, over time, be more destructive than anything else. I remember reading somewhere that WVO has a greater tendency to condensate water than diesel and if you're living in the moist dampness of the north-coast of BC, well, you could have a lot of condensation taking place AFTER you put the WVO into your tank.

i go through the fuel pretty quick usually. idk how long until the fuel starts to pickup any amt of H20

thanks folks

[PlantDrive]

1. true, no in tank heater
Ok so when you are returning to tank, you are sending your barely-heated oil back there, and losing all your heat along the way, and mostly losing heat into the tank of oil. It's a big heat sink. Should be using a looped return. More on this below.

2. its a 25u water separating hydraulic oil filter, luberfiner # 1652
Cheapie cellulose filter, not a water separator, and way too coarse, you should have a good quality water separator type filter on there that is at minimum 10 microns.


3. true. the block heats to 180F give or take
On glow plug is about 10 amps, or about 120 Watts. A Vegtherm standard is double that wattage, and offers better transfer of heat to oil with about 7" of internally fluted (ribbed) surface area spreading out the heating. A glow plug gets VERY hot and a glow plug heater gets the oil that touches it VERY hot (cooks it), with oil further away from the tip being heated indirectly. There are concerns about glow plug heaters causing formation or carbon particles in the oil that is closest to them. There are also concerns of them burning out, or of tips eroding or breaking off and ending up as abrasive particles in the pump. In any case, without a looped return, what you are getting with a single glow plug in a big aluminum block and no looped return is very minimal contribution to heating of oil but taking all the risks associated with glow plug heaters. So, loop that return, check the glow plug, see if it is working, and check condition of tip, insulate that block (I have some good nanotech liquid insulation if you want some, let me know), or replace the whole works with a Vegtherm (and looped return)


4.mostly 3/8" supply, 5/16" only after the heater. 3/8" is too big to fit on the IP in.

Ok.


5. return to tank

Need to loop the return. You are working the pumps, likely both of them, way too hard. Those blades/vanes that are damaged/broken are likely that way from working way to hard moving way too much underheated oil.


6. the glow plug heater only turns itself off in the summer, in the desert, after driving a while. i usually turn it off manually after a while.
Ok so this tells you the oil is not even up to temp at the aluminum block, right? If it's not hot enough there, it's likely way cooler at the injection pump and the injectors. Not sure where you are getting your oil temp readings from but the best place is to take them from the return just as it comes back from the injectors. That is your best location to get best accuracy of what temp of oil is at injectors.

7.this van has no fuel starving issues.

Good. When you take off the electric pump, it likely will, unless you loop the return, which you need to do anyway to accomplish two important things.
The first is, to get higher temps. The second is, to minimize vacuum, maximize flow, to prevent system sucking in air, cavitation, fuel starving, etc. Lesser of evils. You do need to build an airtight system when you have a looped return. Return ties into a tee between filter and pump. Otherwise, you're back to running a lot of extra fuel over and over again through the filter, your vacuum goes up, system tends to starve and have cavitation issues. Cavitation, poorly filtered oil, poorly heated oil, acidic oil, these would all be factors that could have ruined your pump. Biggest clue it's been straining to move oil (too much, too cool) is broken and damaged vanes. That's the "built in lift pump" of this type of injection pump.

Water is likely the least of your problems but could also have been a factor, getting oil from here and there, if not all pan tested. When traveling always best to test. At home too, really, although at least at home you have more control over things.
Vegoil is hygroscopic. It tends to take moisture out of the air. You can do all sorts of things to try and get it really "dry" but it will tend to pick up moisture again in relatively short periods of time. But obviously not all pumps are suffering premature death, and it is well established that vegetable oils are excellent lubricants that coat metals and do not wash off even in the presence of steam (the first rapeseed oil, predecessor of Canola, was grown in Canada as lubricant for steam engines in WWII, it was used precisely because it did not wash off cylinders even in presence of steam and so lubricity was preserved. Hertz et al established in lubricity tests at USask that 0.1 percent Canola oil added to winter diesel was enough to restore lubricity to spec levels and that 1 percent Canola oil added to winter diesel fuel could reduce upper cylinder iron wear particles by up to 50%! So I do not think that is the issue but certainly you should have a better filter on there, with some capability to water-block (swell and block in presence of significant amounts of water) OR water-separate (collect droplets on surface of filter media, which will then run down into a collection point, either in the filter element or in a heated-base water separator, so that they can be frequently drained off.

IF you drain a bit off, weekly or so to check, and are finding a bit of water in there, you have a problem with your oil - review your sources, practices, pan test, drain your tank, start over. It's unusual to find any free water in there when using good well settled oil but you can. We just had one come in. Starving issues. I drained off a bit from the water separator of the Donaldson filter (this was a VM2 installed element-down....they work either up, or down, BTW, since there is also a built in heated water separator/sedimentator in the base of the VM2, you can mount either way). It had water and sludgy lookind stuff. We drained the tank, installed a new filter, and advised owner to not pull off bottoms of settling jugs and to use a Wand to prefilter, after 2-3 weeks of settling. So the water separators can give you a clue that you've gotten a bad batch of oil, but you need to drain a bit off them often to check them, especially good idean when on the road getting oil from here and there, and in a damp climate.

IF you do not want to do a full looped return, and since your tank has provision for return, you can also just install a ball valve and tee on the return and make a "partial" return. That will allow you to set the handle so that say 90% is looped, 10% back to tank. Bleeds of any air, gives best of both worlds, in some ways. Allows you to open fully and bleed of after a filter change, then close up to 90% looped again.

[after oil]

DEar Ed Beggs, thanks again and much respect to you for your contributions to the WVO delica community!

1. true, no in tank heater
Ok so when you are returning to tank, you are sending your barely-heated oil back there, and losing all your heat along the way, and mostly losing heat into the tank of oil. It's a big heat sink. Should be using a looped return. More on this below.

i understood that the tank will heat up eventually... i can loop the return no problem. the old version of the kit i use had a looped return, but the "improved" version sends it back to the tanks.

2. its a 25u water separating hydraulic oil filter, luberfiner # 1652
Cheapie cellulose filter, not a water separator, and way too coarse, you should have a good quality water separator type filter on there that is at minimum 10 microns.

minimum 10u or maximum 10u? if my WVO is centrifuged, then theoretically would i not even need a filter at all? BCDelica aka Kevins old van, still on the road, has been running for years w/o a filter. one caveat though of course is water...

3. true. the block heats to 180F give or take
On glow plug is about 10 amps, or about 120 Watts. A Vegtherm standard is double that wattage, and offers better transfer of heat to oil with about 7" of internally fluted (ribbed) surface area spreading out the heating. A glow plug gets VERY hot and a glow plug heater gets the oil that touches it VERY hot (cooks it), with oil further away from the tip being heated indirectly. There are concerns about glow plug heaters causing formation or carbon particles in the oil that is closest to them. There are also concerns of them burning out, or of tips eroding or breaking off and ending up as abrasive particles in the pump. In any case, without a looped return, what you are getting with a single glow plug in a big aluminum block and no looped return is very minimal contribution to heating of oil but taking all the risks associated with glow plug heaters. So, loop that return, check the glow plug, see if it is working, and check condition of tip, insulate that block (I have some good nanotech liquid insulation if you want some, let me know), or replace the whole works with a Vegtherm (and looped return)

im pretty sure the glow plug is 30a, thats what the fuse for it is. when i began to notice power loss i inspected the glow plug. after 60000km it had very little buildup on it and worked good. i put a new one in anyway. i did keep a site filter inline after the glow plug, but it sometimes leaked air, last time i had it of i noticed the paint was coming off it! so i left it off. id love to get my hands on some of that insulation

5. return to tank

Need to loop the return. You are working the pumps, likely both of them, way too hard. Those blades/vanes that are damaged/broken are likely that way from working way to hard moving way too much underheated oil.

ok, so remove the extra pump and loop the return, no problem

i suppose my WVO could be picking up moisture from the air/ from the road drawing through my tank vent...

thanks again... keep em coming

[PlantDrive]

Hi again - thank for your kind words....another year, we're still here, now 11 years in business!

Tank/Return to tank: Yes, the tank heats up eventually buy in the meantime acts as a giant heat sink. So unless it is about -10C or less, you don't need a tank heater operating. With a looped return, you will be asking the vanes in the injection pump to "lift" a lot less fuel than usual. That, and a bigger than stock fuel line diameter mean that it is easy for the pump to draw, slowly, thicker material than usual, with no problems. I ran similar Bosch-type distributor pumps with no in-tank heater in the SVO tank on VW's for years, to -10C. Never a problem with a pump, or performance. The critical item is to have a well-heated filter and then supplementary electric heating of the oil, as needed.

So I'd recommend putting in a shut-off valve for those with tank heaters, a simple "OWG" ball valve from the hardware store is fine. Shut off circulation of coolant to the in-tank heater for all but the coldest months of the year, provided you have a well-heated filter and larger than stock fuel line and looped return.
And for those in cold climates, who are using an exposed aluminum tank, for example, or steel tank, under the vehicle, you might want to look at insulating it and preheating it overnight with the small circulation pump we sell so you can start off with a warmed tank of fuel (via circulation of coolant you've warmed at the engine with engine heater/ block heater/ oil pan heater) instead of a huge mass of cold, heat-sucking oil that is taking up all your available BTU's that you really need up front, not so much going into the oil in the tank.

RE: Filters: use the same micron rating or less than original. Most of these early-90's systems are 10 micron. That, or less. Not more. And running with no filter is foolish.

RE: Glowplug: I really doubt it is more than a 10A glow plug, but it might be marked on the plug, and it would be great if you could check and let us know.

RE: Liquid insulation: I will make small bottles available on our site, for $15. It can be a little hard to get, you might have to wait. Right now I have only 1 litre on hand. If there is demand, I will stock more of it. Could be brushed on to tanks, filter bases, heat exchangers, injection pump, valve cover, injection lines, etc.

RE: Water vapour - another reason to not heat tank unless really necessary is that warmed fuel returned to tank warms mass of oil in tank, then when car is parked and tank of oil cools, damp coastal air is drawn in via tank vent.

[shampoomotor]

Yes awesome info Ed! Thanx
I just lost my reply to your post so here is the short version. Afteroil installed my system so i have most of the same problems plus . . . .coolant coming out of my exchanger is hotter than coolant going in?!?!?! Coolant only circulates when i press the accelorator. Engine surges then stalls on WVO in Park and while coasting down a hill. I would like to achieve an oil temp over 200F as from my reading this is the optimal zone but my exchanger rarely reaches 120F. I am officially scared to run on WVO. If I got this exchanger up to 150-180 would the addition of a standard vegtherm bring me up to my 200? Are there veggietherm products that could achieve this on their own?
Thanx for your time on this.

[after oil]

Yes awesome info Ed! Thanx
I just lost my reply to your post so here is the short version. Afteroil installed my system so i have most of the same problems plus . . . .coolant coming out of my exchanger is hotter than coolant going in?!?!?! Coolant only circulates when i press the accelorator. Engine surges then stalls on WVO in Park and while coasting down a hill. I would like to achieve an oil temp over 200F as from my reading this is the optimal zone but my exchanger rarely reaches 120F. I am officially scared to run on WVO. If I got this exchanger up to 150-180 would the addition of a standard vegtherm bring me up to my 200? Are there veggietherm products that could achieve this on their own?
Thanx for your time on this.

the thread for this conversion is here:
http://www.delica.ca/forum/please-help- ... -9185.html

please lets keep this thread on the topic of injection and wvo and my install

[PlantDrive]

Surging at idle is typically caused by insufficient delivery of fuel and stalling as you return to idle (coming up to a stop sign) is usually air.
Plugged filter, air leaks, too small a line, a return not looped, etc. can all contribute. But if everything is done the way I suggest, Delicas will pull fuel just fine without auxiliary fuel pumps, even from a large tank at rear of van. RE: electric lift pump, I tried this back around the turn of the century on my first Jetta installation, my own car, the very first one I did, as it had this sort of issue. The surging idle. All the system was airtight, but it surged and I thought ok, I guess it needs a pusher pump. It was ok, but it was fixing the symptom not the disease. The better way to go was to install a better-heated, larger final fuel filter. That made the biggest difference. Larger fuel line than stock was also used, and of course a looped return.

These vanes in the injection pump have no problem pulling over 20" of vacuum if they must. Not recommending that, of course (I often see our installs pulling same or even lower vacuum on veg than on diesel, and that's what you want). But they will do it. So give them half a chance and they'll move the necessary amount of veg. Looped return, larger line, use your available BTU's at the front-end, that is in the VM2 heated filter, in a HotPlate flat-plate heat exchanger, etc.

I'd also like to mention that our made-in-BC VM2 filter is being further optimized in 2011 for even better heat transfer and sedimentation in the bottom part of the unit, the base that is the primary stage water-separator/sedimantator part of the filter. The top part is insulated already with the neoprene filter element cover. The base could also be insulated with the material I mentioned. This would really optimize heat transfer at the filter.

I have also been asked if glow plugs can be used there...they can. You'd have to drill out the supplied plugs, tap them, but you could then install two glow plugs that would then be heating coolant, not fuel, right below the filter element. So they'd be contributing directly to heating the fuel in the filter, while also adding heat to the coolant loop that is circulating to the filter and maybe a Hotplate. In this case, you'd be drawing 20A or so, so you'd wire up the glow plugs to be on when on diesel, warming up the coolant and the VM2 veg filter, and then when you switch to Veg, have them turn off, and the Vegtherm turn on (optimal use of electric heating). So this would be a nice setup that is compact.

An HP-16 Hotplate with insulation applied would compliment that, for cold climates or those who really want to optimize a system.