Starter problem, please help

[dpd]

Happy 2010 to everyone in Delica land!

I've got a problem starting and I'm hoping someone can give me advice.
I'm in Edmonton, and foolishly I decided I had to start my Deli to drive it in very cold temps, no block heater. So I kept the ignition going for about 30 seconds, chugging away, until something broke.

Now all I get is rapid, fairly loud clicking when I turn the ignition. It sounds like a solenoid. The starter motor does not sound like it's engaging at all.

Any ideas of where to start troubleshooting? I can do basic electrical tests. What are the chances I'll need a new starter, is it hard to locate one, and is it hard to swap out? Will any decent mechanic be able to replace it, if it's fried?
Thanks in advance, David

[ABdelica]

First, I'm not an expert on the Delica. From my experience:

Assuming your glow plugs was properly "lit up" - the clicking sound is the sound of the plunger within the solenoid engaging which does 2 things:

1) engages the mechanical clutch connecting the starter motor to the flywheel
2) the plunger contacts & forms a physical link/electrical connection - this allows current to flow into the electric motor - allowing it to turn.

If your motor never "turned on" (no combustion) during the attempted start sequence; (my guess) is that your starter is still OK;

Try testing your battery first (the cold weather reduces it's charge); perhaps a boost or a recharge of the battery would fix it. I would try this first. This is the best scenario.

[dpd]

Hi ABdelica, thanks for the reply.

It's not the battery, it's at full charge for sure. I have dual AGM batteries and their voltage tests fine, they're also on a Xantrex charger installed in the van full-time when I'm parked at home.

Any other ideas, since my batteries are not the problem? Again, no sound of motor engagement at all, just loud clicking. It does seem like the starter is getting power, but not turning.

Thanks!

[loki]

Hi ABdelica, thanks for the reply.

It's not the battery, it's at full charge for sure. I have dual AGM batteries and their voltage tests fine, they're also on a Xantrex charger installed in the van full-time when I'm parked at home.

Any other ideas, since my batteries are not the problem? Again, no sound of motor engagement at all, just loud clicking. It does seem like the starter is getting power, but not turning.

Thanks!

your batteries are probably fine, but you should check (if you haven't already) the connections, that is at the battery and also at the starter, remove, clean grease and replace them all.

[dpd]

I can check the wires at the starter and make sure that it's getting 12V. However I am already pretty sure that it is OK, otherwise what is the noise coming out of the starter, of the solenoid clicking? It is loud and constant and regular, for as long as I hold the key, which I do not think would be the case if current was not reaching it.

Is the solenoid integrated with the starter, or a separate part?
If it is relatively easy to unbolt the starter and take it out to verify on a 12V battery that it's not turning, I will do so. That would eliminate any other electrical problem. Anyone have any experience removing the starter? I have a P25V (no turbo) manual transmission delica.

[loki]

I can check the wires at the starter and make sure that it's getting 12V. However I am already pretty sure that it is OK, otherwise what is the noise coming out of the starter, of the solenoid clicking? It is loud and constant and regular, for as long as I hold the key, which I do not think would be the case if current was not reaching it.

Is the solenoid integrated with the starter, or a separate part?
If it is relatively easy to unbolt the starter and take it out to verify on a 12V battery that it's not turning, I will do so. That would eliminate any other electrical problem. Anyone have any experience removing the starter? I have a P25V (no turbo) manual transmission delica.

the wire might be getting 12v, but not enough amps, also the wire could have tons of power but the connection to the starter is not great so just checking the numbers wont cut it. if the connection is bad (not broken) you can get enough power to activate the solenoid but not have enough to turn the starter. I have had this issue on previous vehicles and seen others on this site have the clicking solenoid and not starter action turn out to be a poor connection.

now that I just reread your op I still think this is a cheap and easy things to check so do that first but you may be looking at an issue with the starter, something inside may have snapped bent, melted or what have you. these starters should be ok for 30 seconds of continual use but that is an average :(

[ABdelica]

Personally, I wouldn't touch the starter - you are dealing with a lot of current (amps)!

A guy can get fried!

You can go to google & learn about "starters & solenoid" first.

Isn't it simpler to just plug in the engine heater (to create optimum conditions) & get a boost to start it?

[Green1]

A year or so ago I had a good hard start in my L300, while doing so the "hood" was up and I could see the connections on the starter motor glowing red hot, in fact emitting almost enough light to see by! tightening the connections solved the problem.
Now I suspect that in your case, if those connections were loose at the time of your attempted start, you will probably have already done some damage, take a good look at that area to see if there is evidence of scorching or melted connections, if so, you may need a new starter.

[loki]

Personally, I wouldn't touch the starter - you are dealing with a lot of current (amps)!

A guy can get fried!

You can go to google & learn about "starters & solenoid" first.

Isn't it simpler to just plug in the engine heater (to create optimum conditions) & get a boost to start it?

if there is a poor connection at the starter jumping it wont help as the current cant get to the starter, as for frying yourself you should of course disconnect the battery before you touch anything other than the probe from your multimeter to the starter.

[mararmeisto]

Is your engine turning over or just clicking?

If your engine IS NOT turning over, then it's going to be electrical: the batteries, the connections (check for tightness), the solenoid, or the starter.

If your engine IS turning over but still not starting, then I would suggest fuel system.

Just got a thought from one of the other mech-heads here in the shop: it could be a 'weak' starter solenoid - try tapping it with a hammer. It might be acting up, especially since you indicated it's retarded-cold where you are.

[dpd]

ABdelica: Thanks for the warning. I would certainly disconnect the battery posts before messing with the starter. But it's a good thing to warn about anyway. I don't have a block heater which is why I'm in this situation in the first place. I don't understand why getting a boost from someone would help in any way, when my batteries are fine. To explain further, I have 2 AGM optima batteries up front, and 200 pounds of Trojan L16s in the back in my camper batteries. With a manual switch to join them all, and they are all charged to full, no question, my Xantrex inverter/charger is sure of it too. So getting enough cranking amps is SERIOUSLY not a problem. Wiring up another car to my battery I can certainly try, but my hopes really aren't high that it will help anything.

Loki: that is starting to make sense to me. There are 2 wires to the starter, are there not? 1 small wire from ignition to solenoid, and 1 fat wire from battery to starter? This would make sense to me!

I can see how the fat wire could burn, or a fuse on it could blow, and there is zero volts, no connection at all. But the small wire from ignition to solenoid is still fine. So solenoid clicks, but no power to starter. Is this what you're getting at, does it make any sense?
Thanks!

[dpd]

Another simple question: Is there a fuse between the battery and the starter? that would be a good thing to check before anything else right?

[loki]

I can see how the fat wire could burn, or a fuse on it could blow, and there is zero volts, no connection at all. But the small wire from ignition to solenoid is still fine. So solenoid clicks, but no power to starter. Is this what you're getting at, does it make any sense?
Thanks!

that is a possibility but what I'm thinking is that the connection is just dirty or corroded, electricity isn't black and white, if the connection is poor the amps required to activate the solenoid will probably be able to get through but not enough to turn the starter over. it's kind of like plumbing and there is a partial blockage in a pipe, enough water pressure to get to the first floor but not the 2nd floor.

[dpd]

Thanks Loki. You're saying that the connection might be good enough for the solenoid, but not for the full power for the starter motor, right?

Wouldn't that mean that the solenoid connection to the battery (the solenoid 'trigger' wire that closes it) and the main starter wire (the big contact that gets closed through the solenoid) are one and the same? I don't see how that would work, i.e. there should be 1 wire to the solenoid from the ignition, and one bigger wire to the solenoid from the battery. The 2 should be electrically separate from each other shouldn't they? Or I'm not understanding properly which is likely! Anyway the point is taken one way or another, time to check the wire from battery to starter for damage.

Loki, in the case of previous vehicles where this happened, did you just hear 1 click and no starting, or was it several clicks in a regular rhythm? Why is is clicking over and over, is that the normal action of the solenoid, or should it click once and hold?

[loki]

Thanks Loki. You're saying that the connection might be good enough for the solenoid, but not for the full power for the starter motor, right?

Wouldn't that mean that the solenoid connection to the battery (the solenoid 'trigger' wire that closes it) and the main starter wire (the big contact that gets closed through the solenoid) are one and the same? I don't see how that would work, i.e. there should be 1 wire to the solenoid from the ignition, and one bigger wire to the solenoid from the battery. The 2 should be electrically separate from each other shouldn't they? Or I'm not understanding properly which is likely! Anyway the point is taken one way or another, time to check the wire from battery to starter for damage.

Loki, in the case of previous vehicles where this happened, did you just hear 1 click and no starting, or was it several clicks in a regular rhythm? Why is is clicking over and over, is that the normal action of the solenoid, or should it click once and hold?

the multiple clicks is not normal I don't think, that is why I'm worried that something could be broken inside. I'm pretty sure the starter solenoid is external, it is under the drivers seat with the glow plug solenoids, so there would be just one wire going to the starter. this means the issue could be a back connection at one or all of the places from the battery terminals to the solenoid connections to the connection at the starter. it's a bit of a pain but cheaper than anything else to eliminate this potential problem, remove clean and replace and properly tighten all of those connections, if you problem persists well at least that issue wont be a problem in the foreseeable future :)