The "shaken" and "haircuts"

[Manitoba deli]

Watching movies about japanese street racing doesn't give an acurate depiction of the way most people drive, that would be like saying most North Americans run aroud behaving like Bruce Willis in the Die Hard movies, while some may, the majority don't. And the lifted and modified vehicles are usualy not logging many km's at all. These vehicles are definitly a status symbol in Japan. Also, becareful if you are importing one of these vehicles, as they can be denied entry to Canada at the border if they are inspected and the modifications are considered to be any thing other than regular maintance.

Jason

[Green1]

have you had a good look at japanese car culture and what comes from there like drifting, lifted vehicles, amazing fibreglass work?

And which of those exactly imply high mileage? drifting is the only one that involves the vehicle actually moving, and I don't think many people drift delicas....

[39Ronin]

Nothing personal but, I couldn't disagree more... and now that you have shed light on the fact that you are an importer (legal or not), it makes more sense to me why you endorse buying non shaken vehicles becasue the rarity of the shaken vehicles would leave you with very little to choose from at auction. I actually called it in my first post, dealer importers would stand to benefit from down playing "Shaken" vehicles.

In my original post I was mostly talking about mechanical condition but usually the shaken vehicles are cared for better all round, if somebody didin't really love the vehicle then they would have let the shaken expire after 5 years or even 10 years and never bothered to re-new it $$$$ for 5 -10 more years (5 more shaken).

Shaken shows the progression of mileage, coupled with service records and confirmation of wear and tear being consistant with the milage stated, you usually have a winner.

I don't doubt that some non shaken vehicles are in great cosmetic shape, but lets face it if it sat for a couple of years the vehicle is at a higher risk of being problematic. Would you buy a car locally that sat for a few years in a farm field? I doubt it, but so many Delica buyers out there already have.

[delicabits]

the implying was that japan has different car cultures just like north americans have different car cultures and wasn't related to the high klms. as for drifting have seen a few going sideways on youtube and even on their sides but that is really just splitting hairs isn't it? the point is that some are saying japanese dont drive their cars around and do what normally is done in canada, like going to the shops etc, weekend trips or driving to work and I just cant understand how they come to this conclusion if they dont or havent lived in japan.

[Green1]

So you admit their car culture is different, yet refuse to admit that they might drive a different amount? I don't quite understand your position!

[delicabits]

as mentioned before shaken certificates and shaken reports are 2 totally different things. a vehicle with shaken will have a shaken certificate but it may not have a shaken report. no safety information is recorded on the shaken certificate. also it wouldnt make sense to leave a vehicle sitting without shaken because they would still have to be pay taxes on ownership of the vehicle unless the vehicle is deregistered and that is totally different to shaken.

[delicabits]

So you admit their car culture is different, yet refuse to admit that they might drive a different amount? I don't quite understand your position!

I wrote have different car cultures not their car culture is different. never wrote they didnt drive a different amount, that must have been someone else. i have been implying that they drive no different to anyone else so to assume they dont (not all) put many klms on their cars is just wrong.

[drrod]

I am by means an expert in the "used" Delica market, but I have bought several used vehicles in my lifetime. In my mind (and that in itself may be an issue) it is relatively easy to correlate mileage with the vehicle. I doubt that any of the "scammers" who roll back the odos will incur the expense of making the rest of the vehicle match the new numbers. eg. upholstery, pedals, underside, suspension, paint, etc etc etc.
When I buy a used vehicle, the mileage is the last thing I look at. If it coincides with the rest of the vehicle, great. If it doesn't seem to, then I don't give it a lot of weight (unless warranty is involved). It is the condition of the vehicle, as a whole. that is most important IMHO.

An easy example - I doubt that a vehicle that has 400,000 kms on it will have upholstery (especially the drivers seat) that will match one with 100,000 kms.

Rod

[Brave Auto International]

Below is just my view on this and is just from my experience and just my opinion, some will agree with me and some will not.

Purchased from Auction – the auctions are the safest method of buying a vehicle in Japan in my experience. The auction network has access to government records such as mileages recorded from Shakens etc and this goes back into the nineties. If you own a 1995 vehicle with 100,000km’s on the clock today and in two or three months time it turns up at auction with 50,000km’s the auction will pick this up via the chassis number of the vehicle. The km’s on the auction sheet will be marked down as not genuine and depending on the auction house, there will be either an * or ? next to the mileage.

If a vehicle has the speedo replaced with an aftermarket speedo and it can be proven to the auction house what the original km’s were before the aftermarket speedo was fitted, the mileage will still be displayed as not genuine but the auction will record on the auction sheet something along the lines of “speedo replaced at 30,000km’s March 2000, currently displays 20,000km’s, total distance is 50,000km’s.
Depending on the auction will depend on how it is written up.

Purchased from Yahoo, Trade Car View, Goo etc – this is the most risky method to buy in regards to mileages unless the seller can provide all service or shaken records. Although with these documents there is still risk.
Even myself, have purchased vehicles from outside the auction network with current shaken and previous shaken. I have then sold the vehicle at auction to find the auction has picked up that the km’s displayed is not correct.
In short, I will not buy vehicles outside of the auction network unless the customer is fully aware that I do not take any responsibility if the mileage is proven incorrect sometime down the track.

New Zealand, one of the pioneering countries for importing vehicles from Japan. At one stage, there were 20,000 vehicles arriving per month from Japan. Back in the early nineties, there were major problems with clocked vehicles being imported. This was not so much the agent (some were to blame) in Japan but more the importer requesting it or even arranging it themselves before the vehicle was shipped.
Things are different now and have been for a while.
New Zealand customs now and have been for a while doing random mileage checks on vehicles that are being imported. If a dealer imports 30 vehicles on one shipment from one agent and NZ customs can prove the mileage to be incorrect on one of the vehicles, NZ customs will automatically impound all 30 vehicles and rule them all as being incorrect. The vehicles are then sold by the government as parts (can never be licensed).
A few years back, this was a major problem and a risk for any NZ importers and to solve this problem the auction system introduced mileage checking to help protect exporters as well as importers in NZ.
Today, you will be hard pressed to find a dealer in NZ who will buy their vehicles outside the auction network. Some will take the risk and still do but not that common.

Auction Sheet – if you think requesting the auction sheet is going to prove either the mileage or condition then you are very wrong. Blank auction sheets for all the auctions are available and simple to get…… even I have them here.
Because I also sell at auction, I have blank auction sheets in the office. Blank auction sheets are easily obtainable from the auction as they are available over the counter and at some auctions they are just sitting there for you to take.
Sound strange……. not really but might do to the outsider.
As a seller, I am allowed to fill in certain parts of the auction sheet such as make/model, spec and any selling feature like “remote starter” for example. The auction sheet will then be placed in the vehicle and sent to the auction and the auction will then do their checks (mileage) and the inspector will then inspect the vehicle and will fill in the rest of the auction sheet. The inspector will only fill in the bare bones when it comes to spec like E/W, A/W, A/C, PAS. If the vehicle has expensive aftermarket suspension the inspector will only write down aftermarket suspension. It is up to the seller to write the type of suspension etc.
Now…. If I write on the sheet that the vehicle has “HKS Coilovers” as a selling feature and the vehicle only has standard suspension, the buyer can claim to the auction who in return claim to the seller.
Once I wrote down Merc 500SL and the vehicle was sold. The next day the auction contacted me to say that the vehicle is called SL500 and the buyer wanted to make a claim and if I remember correctly it cost me 50,000yen for having the model name written around the wrong way. I am sure the auction only gave the buyer 30,000yen refund and kept 20,000 for themselves.

Service Books – a lot of service books get lost over the years which is why you find a good percentage of vehicles do not have books. The Japanese also use service stickers that are placed in the door jams, glove box etc. Each time a vehicle is serviced, the servicing shop will either place the new sticker next to the old, on top of the old or remove the old and replace with the current one. Some owners do not like the service stickers on their vehicles and will remove them.
A percentage of vehicles will come with service books that only have a few stamps in them and the rest is blank. This does not mean the vehicle has only been serviced twice, it just means the service booklet has not been stamped every time.
Normally due to manufacture warranty, the service booklet has to be stamped which is another reason why in some cases some vehicles will come with a booklet but with only a few stamps in it……i.e.…. While the vehicle was under manufacture warranty.
If I purchase a vehicle with a booklet like this, the booklet goes in the bin which might seem strange but there is a very good reason. This stops the next person (normally the importer) from filling the rest of the book in to meet the mileage on the vehicle. It is not hard to get a Japanese worded stamp and away you go….. stamp, stamp etc.
Although it is my duty to protect a customer I also have to protect myself as well. Naturally, if an importer (not saying they would do this but I have been around for awhile) imported a vehicle, decided to change the mileage and then stamp the book to make it look more genuine and were got caught in their country doing this, naturally they are going to say “I brought it like that from Japan and it came with a full service history” and now the problem filters back to me.
Blank service/inspection sheets…….. you can buy these at a number of outlets here……. the same places the service shops get their stationery. They are even sold at the auctions for dealers with service shops to buy.

Some vehicles will come with full service records but it is not that common….. maybe three out of ten. If a vehicle does and I believe it to be correct then I will offer the vehicle out with the full records.

Buying a vehicle with or without shaken – domestic dealers want vehicles with current shaken where as importers(most) do not care as the vehicle is cheaper. It is not cheaper because the vehicle will not pass (some do and some do not), it is the shaken test that costs the big money where this test report is not needed for overseas so what is the use of paying extra for a vehicle with a current or new shaken. Most vehicles between shaken reports have not done huge amounts of km’s…… most have done less than 10,000km’s. The cost of a shaken is not determined by the km’s on the car but the age of the car.
On average……. 50-60% of vehicles I buy (1yr to 20yrs old) will have current shaken and the rest will be either due or just expired.
Any agent selling a car that offers a service where they will arrange a new shaken or are authorized to carry the inspection out, you need to really think a little harder….. what a coincidence that their vehicle they are selling comes with all the shaken reports and now a new one.
As an importer, you can decide to only purchase and import a vehicle with a current shaken, it is completely up to you. For run of the mill and newer vehicles where they are a dime a dozen to chose from this is fine. But, when it comes to 15yr vehicles, trying to find a good clean Spacegear is not easy at the best of times and if it must have a current shaken then you are really limiting what is available.

D - Reg / Export Cert – since late 2007, the Japanese version (not English translation) official D-Reg/Export Cert now records shaken inspection mileages but only from 2004 on. The shaken report is due every 2yrs so you will find some vehicles will display 2004 report and some will not start until 2005 reporting on the D-Reg / Export Cert. Once again, this has been put into place for NZ importers although it is a major benefit for any importer.
If the vehicle you import does not have mileage listed starting from 2004 or 2005 or even 2006, this means it has not had a shaken since then and these are the vehicles when it comes to 15yr old examples that you have to be careful of and that they are not just some old thing pulled out of a field and placed in the auction. Today, if the vehicle you import either comes with the old style D-Reg / Export Cert with no mileages recorded or the new style has no mileages recorded then you need to start asking why not.

Independent Mileage Inspection – there are companies here that do mileage inspections and charge between 15 – 30,000yen for the service. Until late 2007, this was their claim to fame as there was not guaranteed way to 100% confirm the mileage on a vehicle outside the auction purchased from a private person or dealer/agent. However, now with the mileages being recorded on the D-reg / Export Cert they are slowly losing their fame…… why pay them 15 – 30,000yen to confirm the exporter/importer has not tampered with the mileage when the mileage is now on the D-reg / Export Cert.

Vehicle condition – no two vehicles or two owners are the same. There are many different reasons why two identical vehicles can be different on condition in such as wear points like seats, steering, peddles etc etc. This does not automatically mean one has done more km’s than the other even though both vehicles display the same amount of km’s. I have seen vehicles that have done 100,000km’s but look like they have only done 50,000km’s and in return I have also seen 50,000km vehicles that look like they have done 100,000km’s.
Naturally, if you are looking at a Delica with 50km’s on the clock and very worn steering wheel you would start to ask questions. Although saying that, the seller might of replaced the steering wheel with some fancy wood one when he first brought the vehicle. He has then decided a year or two later to sell the vehicle but has kept his fancy steering wheel back. If he still has the original he will refit that but if he does not he/she will replace it with any old cheap thing. So, sometimes things like this happen and sometimes it does not. There are other ways to tell so in a case like this you look a little further.

Low Mileage Vehicles – here in Japan… you can buy super low, low, average and spaceship km vehicles. Just because a certain country does on average 20,000km’s a year does not mean every other country in the world does the same. For people who have been to Japan will understand why there are so many low km vehicles but for people who have not spent time here……. you will never understand why.
I live approximately 30km’s outside of Nagoya which is not far. Luckily for me, I do not have to travel to Nagoya for work but there are many people who do. To go from my house to Nagoya or near Nagoya in rush hour would take me……..hhhhhhmmmmm…. maybe two hours on a good day. If there is an accident then be prepared for a long drive. It would cost me fuel and then road tolls and the road toll alone on a return trip would be 3,800yen per day. Via train, it would take me half the time and a fraction of the price and I get to read a book at the same time.
There are also many other factors as well such as parking problems to name one of them.
Japan has one of the best public transport systems I have ever seen and it is well used.
But, you can also get high mileage vehicles but these tend to be vehicles that are company cars opposed to privately owned vehicles but you will still also get the private person who will only drive his/her car from point A all the way to point Z.

Highway Toll Readers – you will start noticing more and more JDM vehicles turing up overseas with automatic toll readers which is called “ETC”. ETC has been around for a few years now and originally it cost around 50,000yen+ for the system to be installed. Today, it can be installed for 15,000yen and it is even being installed on motor bikes.
Because a vehicle has ETC does not automatically mean it has been driven everyday or every second day on the highways for 20-100km’s. I can go from my house to 10km’s away and have the choice of using the highway/express way which is quicker or take the longer route (stop / start).
Now, the main reason why every Tom Dick and Harry are having ETC fitted is due to the cost as it is now far cheaper having the automatic system (ETC) than paying cash at the booths.

Anyway, so in short……are there vehicles in Japan with tampered mileages? The answer to this question is yes. Are there domestic (sold new in Canada) vehicles outside of Japan with tampered mileages? The answer to this is also yes. Are there agents or dealers in Japan tampering with the mileages? The answer is yes. Are there domestic dealers or private sellers outside of Japan tampering with the mileages? The answer is also yes.
This goes on in every country around the world however it is not a common practice and not every second, third or even fourth vehicle on the road is driving around with a tampered mileage…… far from it.
There have been some rotten eggs exporting vehicles to Australia plus a few other places (some of us know which company is the main rotten egg although they have cleaned up their act since the mileages are now on the D-Reg / Export Cert) but people should not judge every exporter or importer the same as there are some good honest exporters and importers in every country.

At the end of the day, it is the exporters responsibility to ensure or do their best to ensure that the vehicle they export is not one of these vehicles. But unfortunately, not all exporters look after their customers interests in this area and it is for you the importer to work out who is the good, the bad and the ugly.

Cheers

MB..

Japanese D-Reg/Export Cert.

[Manitoba deli]

I totaly agree with what Rod said, and that is why I'm saying not to worry about a shaken, I looked through my records, and 2/3 of the vehicles I purchased from auction had shaken's, but it is not something I look for. I look for overall condition. Most auction sheets show if the vehicle is registered or not, and if it is registered, it has a current shaken, if that is a concern to you when buying from auction. And think about this, I may import vehicles for resale, but I'm not the one telling people to buy from importers, or to only buy vehicles with shaken certificates, I'm the one saying there are lots of good vehicles at auction and not to be afraid of the auctions if you want to import one yourself. I'm only passing on what I have learned to any one who is considering importing on their own and is being scared off by all the hype about shaken and haircuts.

Brave auto just posted as I was typing this, and I don't think there should be any more questions after that.

Jason

[jessef]

I agree with Mark.

Here is an example at auction that I recently looked at.

The mileage and cluster have been altered. This is from a USS Auction (one of the big one's).

Look at the * symbol by the mileage. Then the auction sheet where it's mileage/alteration was detailed.

[delicabits]

a well thought out post by brave with good information. good to see confirmation about shaken certificate and shaken report. not sure about the comments about transport side of things being good outside of a few major cities or high klms mainly on company vehicles. looking at the transport system out side of the main shinkansen & JR route along the southern side of japan shows a different scenario north side of the honshu or south side of kyushu. the lowering of etc price should see more people driving longer distances thus putting more klms on cars.

[Green1]

not sure about the comments about transport side of things being good outside of a few major cities or high klms mainly on company vehicles.

So you are now questioning a fellow who lives in Japan, works in Japan, and has dealt with hundreds (at a minimum) of used Japanese vehicles?

Maybe it's time to give up and realize that the Japanese simply don't average 20,000km/yr!

I guess Mark was right when he said...

for people who have not spent time here……. you will never understand why.

[delicabits]

not sure about the comments about transport side of things being good outside of a few major cities or high klms mainly on company vehicles.

So you are now questioning a fellow who lives in Japan, works in Japan, and has dealt with hundreds (at a minimum) of used Japanese vehicles?

Maybe it's time to give up and realize that the Japanese simply don't average 20,000km/yr!

I guess Mark was right when he said...

for people who have not spent time here……. you will never understand why.

not sure who the 20,000 klm came from but not me. all ive been saying is that japanese people do drive cars just like anywhere else and the transport system is not as good as some would have you believe, especially outside of the major cities.

there is no dispute that some vehicles get hardly driven at all which is what mark was referring too in you will never understand why. i'm sure Mark would even agree that most foreigners living in the cities of japan have no idea of what japanese life is like outside of those cities. it is these foreigners that keep perpetuating myths from 15-20 years ago. i have no doubt that Mark is well informed about things as he lives there and especially about life in and around Nagoya but unless he actually spends his time travelling outside of the major cities he might not have an understanding of other parts of japan. i'm sure someone living and working in somewhere like kyushu would probably have a different opinion on transport and roads etc to mark in nagoya just the same as members here have different views on places in north america.

[jessef]

I have a relative who's lived in kyushu since 88. He rarely drives, takes the transit and doesn't see people drive the way we do here in Canada.

You are getting information from people living in Japan and people who have either lived there previously/visited or have friends/family there.

What's your point in this whole thread ?