WVO, SVO, Biodeiesel and taxation

[Thomas Porter]

Hey folks,
We're looking at putting in a SVO system in our Deli here in SK.
Being in the heart of canola country, I have ready access to fresh canola oil - by the drum - and not a bad price either (I have to buy five drums at a time - will have quality steel drums available for people).
My question is this - should we expect the federal government to start taxing us on our veggie fuel consumption? In the UK people are being prosecuted for not paying fuel tax when they run veggie - between $0.27 and $0.47 per litre - OUCH! That kills a lot of the motivation for people to use veggie.
Apparently, Germany has zero taxation on the use of veggie - that's part of the reason they're leaders in the veggie technology.
But Germany isn't a big oil producing country either, they have less to loose.
Here in Canada, a lot of the tax portion of fuel goes to road work and the like (hard to belive if you've seen the roads in SK). If everyone ran veggie, that revenue stream would disappear. Where does the money come from then?
I'm curious, anyone have any input to offer?
Thomas Porter

[josh]

Well I haven't started on WVO yet, but I think when I do the answer will be that the price of new veg would never be low enough to stop using WVO. I mean I am not looking into it because of the cost (although it is nice to have a system pay for itself). I am looking at WVO because I want to be less abusive towards our environment.

Josh

[Adrock]

an hour or 2 on the weekend. Which I would not otehrwise spend working is worth not a lot to me. If thats all it takes to filter wvo then I think new oil would have to be under 50 cents. Why go cheapish when you can go cheapest.

[Adam]

I also have not yet installed a WVO system, but I've got the money and am just shopping around for the cheapest/best solution. From what I've heard processing of WVO is not much more difficult than brewing your own beer (right now I'm brewing about 300 litres year, no I don't have a problem, just thristy/cheap friends). That being said I'm the only one I know that brews their own beer at home regularly. Most folks I know go to a U-brew, pitch the yeast and come back in a few weeks to bottle it. Like it or not we are a convenience driven society. There is only ever going to be a small percentage of the population that will take it upon themselves to collect their own WVO and set up their own WVO filtering system.

Using using non-waste VO (is that considered SVO? I'll pretend it is), is convenient and 'safer' as you don't have to worry about the quality. It is still a step above diesel and large scale biodiesel, but slightly worse IMHO than local biodiesel or WVO from an environmental stand point.

The ideal situation for me is a WVO Co-op that centralizes the processing equipment and members can participate in several different aspects to make the contribution without having to tackle the entire process at once. Ahhh I think I'm off topic now, sorry Thomas. I would pay (begrudgingly) more than the market price for diesel to fill up with SVO. Of course I'll only do that after a few years on WVO so that I can pay for the conversion

[Kuan]

Hey guys,

THought I would drop my 2 cents on this one. I've been really interested in WVO and Biodiesel and was the main reason for getting a Deli.

I've been running between 5%-20% biodiesel since January and its been smooth sailing and the van is running great.

My main reason for running veggie is the environmental factor, second is anti-corporate reasoning, fourth is educational, fifth is cost.

Cost is way down there because we are fortunate enough in our lifestyle to live rural and work from home. We use just over a tank a month normally.

In terms of taxation, if you use over a certain percentage biofuel in your tank you are supposed to be self reporting your tax anyway. I think... Thats what I've been told.... So in theory we could also be prosecuted for not declaring our fuel tax.

The environmental impact of SVO (new oil) is also controversial. Recent studies argue against SVO as actually more environmentally and socially harmful than is immediately apparent. I think these studies refer to large scale production more than current users.

For example, in large scale production, land is being used to produce fuel rather than cheap food for the poor. Rain forests in Indonesia (or Malaysia) are actually being cleared for the profitable production of the trendy biofuel VO. Most SVO is coming from GMO crops. While in itself not bad for the vehicle, the whole GMO controversy is there, and GMO is cross contaminating non-GMO food crops.

So its a whole new can of worms. But on a individual level, I think if things are kept simple its great. Biodiesl or WVO coops are so liberating.

I am part of the COwichan Biodiesel coop and while prices are higher than current diesel prices at $1.25, it might not be for much longer. (the price is higher because of the inherent cost of running a coop with only 6 producers and 60+ users).

But the best thing about Biodiesel and wvo is sharing. You make some, I make some, and you share with all those that don't. WHen I go to Vancouver it would be great to know that I could swing by one of your places and get fuel rather than having to resort to dino-diesel. Same goes when you go to the island. We could set up our own network.

The best thing about adding wvo system is that you immediately have a tri-fuel vehicle running on fuel from various sources. WVO, SVO, biodiesel, petro-diesel. pretty sweet.

[loki]

I wouldn't use new veggie even if it was free, a major part of the reason to use WVO is not the cost, but the environmetal impact, using new unused oil isn't all that great for the environment imo, maybe a little better than dino diesel.

[after oil]

i would not pay for SVO. i burn WVO not because its free, but because im removing it from the waste stream. its on its way to the landfill when i get it.

If everyone ran veggie, that revenue stream would disappear.

that will NEVER happen

[loki]

If everyone ran veggie, that revenue stream would disappear

I agree with after oil, that would never happen, we couldn't grow enough oil for that without stopping growing food, (algae is one exception that has potential to produce a viable amount of oil without compromising food production or the cutting down of more forests)

[PlantDrive]

A few comments:

In the UK, users are allowed, for the last couple of years now, to use 2500 litres a year before they have to remit any road tax.

In Germany, at least the last time I checked, road tax is now applied to SVO.

In Belgium, it is quite interesting - the government wants SVO to remain a niche market, so they have set things up such that farmers themselves can sell directly to end users, no tax, but no intermediaries. Farm-gate sales only, so to speak....I actually quite like that idea.

SVO/WVO? Question: I have a hard time with this one.

Scenario A: Take Canola or Sunflower seed from a farmer, pay a low price, truck it to an industrial-scale mill, use a chemical solvent to extract every little bit of oil you can, resulting in a nutritionally-inferior pellet, feed the pellets to animals in factory-farms, refine/bleach/deodorize/"winterize" the oil until all the nutritional value and natural anti-oxidants are wrung from it, using yet more energy, and more chemicals, and creating more waste, then package the oil into little plastic 16 litre cubies inside of cardboard boxes, and distribute them to restaurants all over town where people can indulge their craving for an unhealthy means of cooking the life out of perfectly good food (deep frying). Then, let locals collect the now-substandard, often-questionable-quality oil and burn it in engines, instead of sending it off for pet food and animal feed, and (too often) toss the jug-in-cardboard into a dumpster. Oh, and the farmer goes and buys Tar Sands Diesel (TSD) like the rest of the country, gets it trucked to the farm, uses it for operations.

Scenario B: Farmer cold-presses the oil, needs about 5% of land base for oil for farm fuel operations, and sells surplus, regionally, direct to end users - some for cooking oil, some for salad oil, some for SVO. No chemicals, bulk sales, re-use the drums and totes many times. Pellets (2/3rds of the product from a press will be pellets, and about 1/3rd oil) will contain about 6-8% oil, and are much more palatable and healthy as animal feed. Feed the animals on the same farm. No animals? Use as organic slow release fertilizer. Farmer gets maximum value from seed, end users for fuel get much better quality, good access, can buy in bulk, fill up at home or at regional farmers markets (and buy some good food, take it home, save money, while there). Restaurants have to pay more for fryer oil, they now have competition. All of a sudden, you see a lot less fried foods, and a lot more raw foods and oven-fries on the menu - better food. Farmer can also press low-value / no-value "green seed" at home, and use pellets as fertilizer or solid fuel ( I visited our press supplier, Hybren, in Denmark...the owner has a stoker-boiler set up, in a shed, to start up when the thermostat in the house/shop demands heat...the press starts up, the pellets go to the stoker-boiler, and the oil goes to a 3-jug cascade settling system, for later use in the tractor/car. Another on-farm use for some of the oil is to burn it in a diesel CHP system, combined heat and power, which can be well over 80% efficient. The farm can sell any surplus electricity into the grid, and have all the hot water they can use for home heat, domestic hot water, etc.

Which is better? I just mention the above to try to make the case the just because a lot of WVO exists, from a lot of fryers, this does not make it the ideal situation...maybe we ought, as a society, to be looking at why we have so much oil being used for this purpose in the first place. It's not using it as food, it's using it, briefly, in an inefficient system, to destroy a lot of the natural goodness in the food, make people fat, and then chuck it out. Using it as WVO is better than sending it to landfill, yes. But look at the larger picture, and see if it SVO starts to makes sense, done the way I've outlined above...and that's basically the sustainable model that has been advocated for in Germany, etc. It creates jobs, reduces wastes, increases income to farmers with less subsidies, etc.

Bothered about that study that said biofuels caused more CO2 than they used? Read the rebuttal published by the experienced researcher Jacob Bugge, of the Folkecentre for Renewable Energy, in Denmark, and read some of their other work, on the energy balance and CO2 balance of fuels derived from organically-produced (not to mean "certified" organic, just the methods...) rapeseed (Canola). These can be easily Googled.

I'd pay the same as diesel for SVO. And I will be in SK this summer, so please let me know where I can fill up with your SVO and pay you for the privilege!

[after oil]

the ideal situation:

local food, local economy, NO CARS, more time for family

[loki]

maybe we ought, as a society, to be looking at why we have so much oil being used for this purpose in the first place. It's not using it as food, it's using it, briefly, in an inefficient system, to destroy a lot of the natural goodness in the food, make people fat, and then chuck it out.

It be much easier I think to get "society" to do lots of other things that are infinitely better for the world than that like put solar panels on every roof and use wind, tidal, wave, and geothermal power and develop better hydrolysis techniques then all our cars houses and everything else can be electric and/or hydrogen. that way people can sit in their electric car eating their McDonald's fries and everyone is happy. :)

[almac]

the day the BC Liberals begin to tax SVO or WVO usage, is the day i will quit using it, sell my deli and buy a smartcar.

i got into veg to save money. its also a nice thing to burn something other than toxic crap.
as much as i love my deli, i also despise any more taxes upon us.