Timing belt confusion

[vstrom]

OK..Im doing my own belt change.
Got the lower,smaller belt on no problem (Belt B on the PDF).

I'm having issues with the timing marks for the main belt. I've looked at all 24 pages on a search thru the 300 tech section..

I can line up the marks on the IP gear and the valve gear. The crankcase gear is giving me a headache. Do I use the mark on the smaller, second gear (it is the one to be connected to the main belt)? or do I use the mark on the first, bigger gear (that is currently used with Belt B)? Or do I use the mark on the Vnotch pulley that corresponds with the TDC on the lower belt cover?

If I use the small gear, which the PDF's picture seems to suggest, I can't get the mark to line up any closer than 2 teeth before it hits the valves.

The big gear and the pulley seem to match up very close to TDC on the lower belt cover. To me that suggests that's the way to go,.. but I need to double check.. which is where you guys come in.

Hate to FUBAR this up.

Couldn't find my answer in a search and the Tech PDF is very vague with bad diagrams.

[Tojo]

Did you put a paint mark on your old belt and gears before taking it off? If yes, did you count teeth on the old belt?

If no, then I'm just about to dive into this job this coming weekend, and I could check my setup, take pics and count teeth (1993 L300 4D56T, oil-cooled turbo, stock no mods)

[yojimbo]

Its the notch in the steel plate between the 2 gears as in the pic in this thread http://www.pocuk.com/forums/viewtopic.p ... 736defddcc

I cant really imagine even trying to time it to any others looking at it almost side on!

[vstrom]

Did you put a paint mark on your old belt and gears before taking it off? If yes, did you count teeth on the old belt?

If no, then I'm just about to dive into this job this coming weekend, and I could check my setup, take pics and count teeth (1993 L300 4D56T, oil-cooled turbo, stock no mods)

No,I never thought to paint anything. Or count teeth. What started this whole process was that I wanted my injector pump fixed, and it coincided with doing a 200k service. I took it off at the last possible minute, in a rush, so I just cut the old belt and got the pump off then shipped. Then I left for a few weeks to Saskatoon.

Its the notch in the steel plate between the 2 gears as in the pic in this thread http://www.pocuk.com/forums/viewtopic.p ... 736defddcc

I cant really imagine even trying to time it to any others looking at it almost side on!

Excellent! That's what I think I'm looking for.. that's the same notch that corresponds with the bigger gear behind it and TDC on the lower plastic.

What has me confused is that second, smaller gear that has a notch in it as well, but doesn't seem to be used in this timing.

[thelazygreenfox]

When you have all the belts on and timed correctly pat yourself on the back. Then turn the engine over by hand and if you feel anything hitting do it all over again. If the engine spins freely you've done a goodjob.
good luck
TLGF

[vstrom]

Well, slapped it all back together.. said a Hail Mary .. and started to crank.

Nawp.. nuthin..

Oh yeah.. gotta re-prime it after I'd had the IP off. Switch it to On, pump the fuel filter can, bleed the air..

crankcrankcrankcrankcrankcrank*POOF*.. HUGE cloud of black smoke.. shoulda opened the garage door prior to this I guess!

Same thing for about 3 attempts.. started to worry that I'd done something wrong.. maybe I was making it wrong-er if I kept doing this... next time it 'poof's' I'm giving it some gas..

Success! She lives! And it sounds good, feels good, looks good, even smells good.

Tomorrow will be the idle test (let it sit at idle for 15min and see what falls out) then a drive. Followed by a well deserved wash and vacuum.

[vstrom]

Well today wasn't great.

Turns out that all it would do was idle and make a bunch of smoke. I initially thought that I had air in the fuel system, so I tried to back it out of my garage and let it idle for a bit to see if it would cure itself. Now, in order for my rig to fit in my small garage, i have to clear the snow/ice right in front of the door. While trying to back out, I eventually hit the lip of the snow that I cleared and my van didn't have the power to climb over. Couldn't believe it.

So something is obviously wrong and I pulled it back in.

Poked around and discovered that, somehow, my timing marks weren't lined up! The valves gear and the IP matched up, but the crankshaft was out .. lined up with the 10deg mark! What the hell?

I guess I must have lined it up wrong and somehow missed it when I did my double check. Must've been a pretty crappy double check I guess.

So.. timing belt off.. line up the marks.. belt back on.. do a double check (like I would've caught anything) .. and crank..

Runs worse than before! Fack.

Loosen the bolts and disconnect the solid fuel lines from the IP and I twist it all the way to the right. I figure that I'd start at one extreme of the IP timing and move towards the other and hopefully find a decent spot until I can get a proper timing tool.
Well I may have nailed it 'cause she fired right up with no smoke and purred like a kitten!

Took it for a very quick test drive, and it sure feels like it runs better with a bit more power.. but I'll have to take it for a real test drive tomorrow on the highway and try to be impartial.

More to follow...

[vstrom]

Went for a drive finally today and the van drove great! Smooth running..good power.. fantastic! Drove to the hangar for a wash and vacuum.. de-gunked underneath, then left to go home. Got about a quarter of the way there and I was literally thinking to myself: "Self, you did a pretty good job. She's running fine and smooth.. nice and quiet.." when POW! she starts running rough and loud!

What the hell?

I pull over, notice it;s idling at a lower rpm now (550ish as opposed to 750-800 from this morning), kind of rough, more 'clackatyclackaty' diesel sounds.. no leaking fluids and everything looks ok under the hood.

Drive home. Wont get above 3000rpm. Seems to have a lack of power or throttle response. Drive home at 80kmh.

I stuff it back into my garage and start taking stuff off. Found out that the belt has skipped a bunch of teeth on the crankshaft gear! The valve gear and IP gear line up perfectly. The crank was reading about 8-10 teeth behind!

So I'm asking you guys with your huge knowledge of these engines.. how can this happen and how can I stop it from happening again? The belt is on tight.. but I guess it must be finding some slack somewhere? Not sure how.

Any ideas welcome. I have to drive to Winnipeg in a week and I need to trust my rig again.

[vstrom]

I think I'll have to try flipping the timing belt around. Not sure if it's directional..

Tensioners (sp?) are new and seem to work. Lots of tension on the belt..

[thelazygreenfox]

Okay, I've listened to this long enough.... Forget turning the timing belt around, obviously not someone thats mechanically inclined..
You made a great effort to install your own belts but "it's time to get a mechanic to repair the prooblems you've created. " You're digging yourself a big hole and it's going to cost you a new engine soon, if you haven't already bent the valve train.
load the van onto a tow truck and send it to a mechanic with experience on delicas.
TLGF

[jelbon]

It's pretty simple.
Put the pulleys on the marks, install the belt, tension it, turn it over twice by wrench and if the marks are in the same place you're good.
If not, you scewed up.
Repeat previous steps.
If you run the engine without doing that, you'll hit the valves with pistons.
"pissedandbroke"
Get tow truck.

[vstrom]

It's pretty simple.
Put the pulleys on the marks, install the belt, tension it, turn it over twice by wrench and if the marks are in the same place you're good.
If not, you scewed up.
Repeat previous steps.
If you run the engine without doing that, you'll hit the valves with pistons.
"pissedandbroke"
Get tow truck.

Yep did all that. Marks were definitely lined up.. turned it over a few times by hand no problem and returned to the marks.

It ran great for 60kms.

[vstrom]

Okay, I've listened to this long enough.... Forget turning the timing belt around, obviously not someone thats mechanically inclined..
You made a great effort to install your own belts but "it's time to get a mechanic to repair the prooblems you've created. " You're digging yourself a big hole and it's going to cost you a new engine soon, if you haven't already bent the valve train.
load the van onto a tow truck and send it to a mechanic with experience on delicas.
TLGF

I dont live in a big city. I live in the North. There are no Delica mechanics here. I also live 30km from town.

I'm also pretty handy and can usually fix something thats broke. I only really post here when something goes wrong orif something doesn't make sense. Usually I don't post about how well some project went.

What? Haven't you guys ever had an easy job turn into a pain in the ass before?

I know someone else had a belt slip but I don't think I ever found out why.

[thedjjack]

Are the tensioners tight?

Did the balance belt and tensioner get changed? did it fail and get under the other belt?

First thing I would do:

1) check the tensioners
2) check the balance belt (you changed this right?)
3) CHECK the crank pulley!!! did you put in the key, did it fall out. The crank pulley is known to fall off these motors. If the belts were done right they should not be able to jump. My money is problem with the crank pulley. remove check, new key, new bolt, new pulley if needed.

Belt should have a direction on it. If the belt did skip put another new one on it as it could be damaged and fail $$$$$$$$$

[yojimbo]

I would mostly agree with thedjjack, well except for the parts I disagree with Actually thats not fair, its just there is a few more details.

If everything is intact and the tensioners tight, ie, released to apply pressure and then locked down on a new belt, then it wont slip. However, there are a few caveats. For a start, do you have the right belt? If memory serves there are 2 belts for the 4d56t, one is square toothed and on has a semicircular profile, I can imagine the wrong one wouldnt help matters much, but thats a long shot, if you got the belt based on the chassis number etc, and if my memory is right.

If the belt is ok then the bottom end is the prime suspect, though, to be a pedant, it wont be the crank pulley The crank area has 3 common failure modes on this engine, 1) The bolt comes undone and it all comes loose and its lights out chicago. This is due to the original bolt being reused, stretched, threads poor, or it bottoms out, apparently quite common. 2) (Usually caused by 1) There is slop on the bolt/pulleys/gears, they wobble around and the woodruff keys, crank, and slots in the gears and pulley get chewed up, and then its downhill from there as it all wobbles around until it collapses. 3) Pulley failure, this is where the rubber damper in the middle of the pully separates and the outer ring stops spinning properly with the inner ring, then the water pump doesnt spin right, the engine over heats, and the hordes of hell exit through a hole in the basement and consume all humanity. Quite bad, but the engine time isnt directly effected by pulley failure alone.

There are 2 gears, as you know, on the crank, and the pulley, and they are located by 2 woodruff keys, is it possible that one key came out and the timing gear is now only partly located on the second? Allowing it to snap the end off maybe and spin a little? I cant remember how well they engage where.

So in short, double check the belt, and check and see if the bottom gear looks like its spinning correctly, and maybe mark it against the crank and see if that position changes. A properly set up motor wont skip teeth on the right belt until quite a few thousand k after belt fitting when it stretches/loosens and needs retensioning.