Delica Canada | Mitsubishi Van Club

Chewy wrote:I see your point Fanny Bay,

But I would say that the Liberals are beholden to a very small cartel of individuals as well, but with corporate sponsorship on any level you have these issues. I'm not saying the NDP are the be all end all, far from it if the best they can put forth is Carole James....but in the sense of the RHD issue, that was Catherine's standpoint, and for the most part wasn't supported by the rest of her party members. The NDP do scare me, as they make very little clear as to what they desire for this country. On the other hand, I have a fairly good idea of what Gordo wants, to live large, spend money on privately sponsored projects, and then eliminate the defecit by selling off social infrastructure. I would rather see the province go into debt creating social safety nets than have the budget in the black and my ass out on the street.

I'm flabberghasted at the lack of a good choice, understanding it's flaws I was hoping STV would help eliminate the strategic voting problem and get some fresh ideas and blood into an otherwise old boys club.

Just tired and disappointed coming up in this world as an adult, it feels like it's broken and the older generation has found it's niche and is too apathetic to want to help fix it, and for the most part my generation is more concerned with being a vapid consumer than what parties are planning to do...let alone vote.

Nicely said Chewy !

mararmeisto wrote:The problem with the STV issue is a matter of complexity. Most voters have a difficult enough time wrapping their head around what the different parties are peddling come election time, but trying to figure out the STV was going to be an even greater stretch.

One of the reasons for the first-past-the-post election process is to accommodate a multi-party system (which we've had pretty much from the beginning in this country), although some would argue that it actually supports only a two-party system. Some see the STV as a more fair way of accommodating many nominees on a single ballot, but it is complicated to tally.

I think a better reform would be a system similar to the that south of the border which, while not codified, has settled into a two-party system. Of course, the problem with that system is: what if your platform issues don't align with either party?

Regardless, if one doesn't vote, one doesn't get to grouse about the government, and considering only 52% of BC voted, there should be a lot of silent observers for the next four years.

So your'e saying we are too stupid for STV ? ......the sad part is you might be right.

I needed only 2 reasons to NOT vote NDP.

1 - I drive by the fast ferries every day on the way to work, sitting at lower lonsdale rotting, bought by the Washington group for 19+ million though the original construction cost was almost $600 million, of which a huge portion was paid to the Washington group. A classic example of a mis-guided NDP government with grandiose dreams that consistently end up taking our hard earned tax money and throwing it away. I'm happy to say I live in a peaceful country, because had this happened in virtually any other country, some politician would have had to either go into hiding or be lynched. I still cannot understand how almost $600 million dollars can be wasted so frivolously and nobody is doing jail time? I remember the NDP saying "this is new technology we will sell to the world" - ships much like these have been running in places like Australia for over 10 years prior to even being thought about here. This was the same mantra when the NDP government of the day built the Seabus (at least that service is still functioning) - I remember being a grade school student at the grand opening and an NDP MLA was saying "this is going to restart the ship building industry on the bc coast and we will sell them to the world"....hmmmm, I don't believe that actually happened.

2 - watching Carol James try to blame the current government for the woes of our forest industry leads me to believe either;

A - she or the people educating her are terribly inept because anyone who truly believes this does not understand the gravity of the housing collapse in the USA where the majority of our forest products are sold.
B - she or the people educating her are fully aware that their comments are untrue but wish to use the terrible situation the forest industry is in for political gain.

So, take your pick - the NDP are either completely inept, or a liars - I don't like either.
Now, to be fair, I think the Libs can be inept and liars too....just not as often in my opinion!!!!

Kuan wrote:

konadog wrote:

mararmeisto wrote:only 52% of BC voted

WTF?! Pathetic...

People in this province and this country don't know how good they have it. People around the world are dying for democracy. I think it should be illegal not to vote. Sad very sad reflection of our society.

http://www.movieweb.com/video/VIi1ynliqMFalm

jrman wrote:I needed only 2 reasons to NOT vote NDP.

1 - I drive by the fast ferries every day on the way to work, sitting at lower lonsdale rotting, bought by the Washington group for 19+ million though the original construction cost was almost $600 million, of which a huge portion was paid to the Washington group. A classic example of a mis-guided NDP government with grandiose dreams that consistently end up taking our hard earned tax money and throwing it away. I'm happy to say I live in a peaceful country, because had this happened in virtually any other country, some politician would have had to either go into hiding or be lynched. I still cannot understand how almost $600 million dollars can be wasted so frivolously and nobody is doing jail time? I remember the NDP saying "this is new technology we will sell to the world" - ships much like these have been running in places like Australia for over 10 years prior to even being thought about here. This was the same mantra when the NDP government of the day built the Seabus (at least that service is still functioning) - I remember being a grade school student at the grand opening and an NDP MLA was saying "this is going to restart the ship building industry on the bc coast and we will sell them to the world"....hmmmm, I don't believe that actually happened.

2 - watching Carol James try to blame the current government for the woes of our forest industry leads me to believe either;

A - she or the people educating her are terribly inept because anyone who truly believes this does not understand the gravity of the housing collapse in the USA where the majority of our forest products are sold.
B - she or the people educating her are fully aware that their comments are untrue but wish to use the terrible situation the forest industry is in for political gain.

So, take your pick - the NDP are either completely inept, or a liars - I don't like either.
Now, to be fair, I think the Libs can be inept and liars too....just not as often in my opinion!!!!

A - That was a long time ago
b - The Olympics are going to make the Fast Ferries look like good old days when money wasted was measured in the millions as opposed to billions.

Bryanc....
if you think the fast ferry fiasco was "along time ago" - then you must be terribly young, which means you may not have the benefit of seeing successive NDP governments getting into bed with those that support them in the same way that the Libs get into bed with those that support them (pardon my jaded outlook on politics, but it's been cultivated over many years so I'd hate to let it go completely after so much work ). Sadly, I've been around to see a few NDP administrations and as I stated before, I'm not a fan of any politico - but it's a case of choosing lesser evils from my perspective.

For me, it's about how the money is spent. I don't expect good value out of any tax money I send to the government because I've become a jaded old fart by working for Environment Canada in the 1980's then the Ministry of Forest in the early 1990's. I've seen waste at levels unimagineable. Men with PhD's having their budgets cut but keep their jobs - sitting at desks getting paid 70 - 80K per year back in 1985 dollars to do nothing because there was no budget for their work. These guys would quite literally read the paper all day long...for years...until the next party came in and said "hey...we've got a budget for you now". That is how the system in Government works. It is but one of a million stories to be sure.

So, I do expect at least something for the money I send to the government, even if it is a return on my dollar far far far below my expectation...I expect at least something. The fast ferries didn't even meet the most lowest of my expectations (and I assure you from my previous work experience...my expectations are very low).

Or how about a person I used to know who worked closely on the skytrain (specifically when they were doing the Braid Street Line) in an accounting capacity - and there are stories that would curl all our toes. At least I can accept that because I know that no matter how much we may hate to see cost over-runs and mis-management - we do need infrastructure and Vancouver needs mass transit in a very bad way. So, at least we are getting some value in return for our tax dollars, no matter how poorly they may be applied.

In the same way, I'm ok with the Olympics - again for only one reason - the federal money that would never have come to our province without the olympics makes me ok with it overall. The ends justify the means so to speak. I'm currently in Ottawa as I write this, and there are Olympic flags here in support of what is going on in BC. The pork barrel projects here are mind boggling - but the old rule applies "if you can't beat them, join them" and that is what the Olympics for BC means. There will be facilties and infrastructure improvements paid for in a large way by our Federal government that would have have happened in a million years without the Olympics. It's a political tool to be sure, and the Libs in BC know this well and have used it to the max. I don't like the system, but it is what it is and that is how to get things done.

Wow...I feel better...guess I've been holding that in too long...gotta change the route I take to work I guess

jrman wrote:... sitting at lower lonsdale rotting, bought by the Washington group for 19+ million though the original construction cost was almost $600 million

From http://www.robbinssceresearch.com/polls/poll_403.html

Question #1
The Vancouver Trade and Convention Centre developed under the BC Liberals was initially budgeted to cost just under $500 million in 2002. The final cost could reach $900 million or more. The fast ferry scandal under the former Glen Clark NDP government of the 1990’s went from $210 million to nearly $460 million. The fast ferries were sold by Premier Gordon Campbell for $20 million. In your opinion which of the two political scenarios is the worse boondoggle?
The Glen Clark NDP fast ferries 13.5 %
The Gordon Campbell Liberal Vancouver Convention Centre 26.5 %
They are both equal blunders 46 %
Undecided/Don’t Know 14 %

From http://flyingshingle.com/cgi-bin/corant ... 3321071060

Campbell's Convention Centre overruns:
the largest boondoggle in BC history
by BCNDP
Tuesday, April 7 2009
With a final price tag nearing $900 million, Campbell’s expansion of the Vancouver Convention Centre has set an all-time record for cost overruns in BC.

The facts tell the story of an arrogant government that puts pet projects and cost overruns ahead of the real priorities for B.C. families.

• The original price tag of $495 million has nearly doubled, and the Auditor General projects the final bill to be even more.

• The escalating costs result in part from the B.C. Liberals’ failure to develop and follow a proper business plan. The Auditor General uncovered that Campbell’s team committed to spend millions of tax payer dollars without first deciding the project’s scope and details.

• Campbell picked B.C. Liberal insiders to be project leaders. The board was chaired by his deputy minister, and included a former Liberal party president. According to the Auditor General, "from the beginning the board lacked a member with the appropriate expertise for a project of this specialized nature."

• Campbell pressed the Treasury Board to approve six budget increases for his convention centre. And at every turn, the Campbell Liberals have tried to mislead British Columbians on the ever rising costs.

TIMELINE:

• December 2003 - $495 million (Press Release, Government of B.C.)

• November 2004 - $565 million: "This will be on time and on budget -- count on it." - Premier Gordon Campbell (Vancouver Sun)

• November 2005 – $615 million “$615 million will be the final cost…” - Tourism Minister Olga Ilich (Hansard)

• February 2007 – $800 million "Preliminary estimates of an updated project cost are in the range of $800 million.” - Tourism Minister Stan Hagen (Vancouver Sun)

• July, 2007 - $883.2 million “We've been assured this is the final budget.” Finance Minister Carole Taylor (Vancouver Sun)

The cost overruns of almost $400 million for Campbell’s pet project should have gone to pressing needs for British Columbians -- child care spaces; long term care for seniors, job retraining; public education.

So, I hear lots of talk about the "least of two evils" etc., and whining about how the system is broken but "Oh well, that's just the way it is", but I don't hear anyone saying they voted Green to change things up.

Curiously observing from Ontario.

Well, if the stv system had passed a vote to the Greens would not be such the lost cause it is now. As it stands the Greens just split the left and leave the win for the red-necks. Too bad And call me a wet blanket - but I'm hoping' for rain for the Olympics - Bah! What a scam

JRman , i wish i were so young that i couldn't remember all this stuff first hand but i am 39 and remember it all too well , the " fast ferry debacle was over ten years ago and that is a long time especially in politics , Bill Clinton was half way through his second term and we were about to know the name Monica Lewinsky ,I had never heard of Geore w Bush and the twin towers would stand for another three years , i don't know about you but those things seam like they happened a long time ago . I got tired years ago that the answer to any question posed to a BC Liberal was " Fast Ferries "
I am no huge fan of the NDP but the Liberals are no better and maybe worse , it's a crappy state of affairs wich is why i was really pulling for STV to get through i mean it couldn't be worse , it's only a matter of time before Gordon Cambell finishes the job of selling off all of the Provinces assets to his supporters and insiders , BC Hydro is next and the cupboard will soon be bare , i say again it's a sad state of affairs.
Bryan

Hey Bryan....on that point we can most certainly agree.
Cheers,
Sean