Court case tomorrow re Delica lights in Manitoba

[winnipeg sue]

Hi there. So, in spite of all your wise advice and experience, Manitoba Public Insurance and Winnipeg police are insisting that E13 lights are not acceptable in MB because they don't have a DOT stamp. Tomorrow I go to court, basically to fight the ticket they gave me for having lights not up to code, arguing that their regulation is arbitrary and unfair (some of you have even suggested it's illegal, but I don't think that's the case). It appears, too, that I am the only one to have yet come up against this issue, though the police are saying they're going to take all right side vehicles off the road.
Even if I don't have to pay the ticket, though, this will not likely get the vehicle back on the road, since the word is spreading to mechanics not to safety without a DOT stamp on the lights. And NOW I've discovered that they won't even sell me a temporary pass to drive the thing out of the province so I can sell it.
2:00 tomorrow. Provincial courts.
If there are any Delica owners in Manitoba who have had their vehicles safetied and licensed in Manitoba in the last year, and who have E13 lights, I'd love to hear from you. If they're still letting new ones in, then they really don't have a leg to stand on. Don't worry, I won't use your name!

Hope Sonny Terry and Brownie McGee are right: "The sun's gonna shine in my back door some day."


;-(
Susan

[almac]

good luck on that susan.

to my exerience, fighting the gov is like throwing stones at a main battle tank.

please let us know the outcome.

[Manitoba deli]

I have had both my delicas inspected by mpi, and had no trouble, when you are in court, be sure to mention that most the BMW's and Mercedes cars sold in Canada have the E coded lights. The lights have to have DOT or equivalent rating, and be marked as such. The E-13 lights have been declared equivalent. If they were not, new vehicles could not be sold with them.

Send me a pm, or call if there is any thing you think I can help you with.

Jason

[jaggedfish]

Best of luck Susan!
If there is any advice I can offer, it would be to get the exact wording of the "DOT or equivalent" statement and try to find a declaration of E-13 equivalency - Manitoba Deli makes a good point re new vehicles. I don't believe the police have the jurisdiction to take all RHD vehicles off the road... that would have to be Transport Canada or a provincial body regulating vehicle safety. Police aren't educated on vehicle safety/road worthiness - they are not mechanics... they only know the laws associated with vehicles.

Edit... maybe another tact, instead of you providing info, how about ask them to provide information that states E-13 are not equivalent. The case could get thrown out that way.

On a happy note... your music reference ROCKS! I have my Sonny Terry harmonica books and my harp right beside me
Hopefully you won't be siging the blues (for that reason anyway). Keep your chin up!
Ian

[winnipeg sue]

Guilty, with an absolute discharge. This means I don't have to pay the fine ($171) but I can't put the vehicle back on the road, except illegally.
Judge says ALL vehicles in MB without a DOT or SAE stamp on their lights are driving illegally and will eventually be taken off the road. She didn't give me a chance to say that they will never pull a BMW over in a vehicle inspection. There was a Jaguar parked behind the court without DOT or SAE stamp!
Susan

[thedjjack]

Snow plow lights are DOT stamped. Add them and you are legal.

[psilosin]

Fighting stupid is the hardest fight that can be fought.

It is unfortunate that this wasn't posted earlier and on ivoac.ca so people could have helped provide a solid case. Not sure how the judge could not even listen to evidence about E-code headlamp equivelency from Transport Canada before ruling. Sounds like a judge that did not respect you enough to listen (or your arguments were very badly prepared...lol I mean that as a joke). As if a provincial judge would be able to tell BMW and Mercedes etc that there vehicles are not up to Manitoba standards...when the standards Manitoba uses are the federal standards and according to those federal standards, Ecode meet or exceed the requirement. A decent lawyer would have a field day on that judge.

I'd like to see them try and muscle BMW/Merc like they did to you. To get the ball rolling flip to the other side and start protesting the BMW dealership with signs that say "BMW uses ILLEGAL HEADLAMPS!!! DANGER FOR YOUR KIDS!!" Eventually people will take notice to some degree and they will have to make some statements that either proves their case (and yours) or they would have to be forced to recall all their vehicles without DOT headlamps. If they ever did end up having to prove themselves in court they would 100% win.

[thedjjack]

I'd like to see them try and muscle BMW/Merc like they did to you. To get the ball rolling flip to the other side and start protesting the BMW dealership with signs that say "BMW uses ILLEGAL HEADLAMPS!!! DANGER FOR YOUR KIDS!!" Eventually people will take notice to some degree and they will have to make some statements that either proves their case (and yours) or they would have to be forced to recall all their vehicles without DOT headlamps. If they ever did end up having to prove themselves in court they would 100% win.

This seems like a good idea....I would try the media showing that all BMW/Mercedes are illegal in Manitoba and going to kill Manitoba drivers. Can you appeal the decision since it is wrong?

In the mean time add some snow plow lights to the bush guard and have it inspected so you can get insurance and drive. You driving a L400 or L300? You could also get the 4 light setup from a US spec or Pre-1990 van (Mine is a 1989 and has standard 4 rectangle light headlights.

Good luck

[William]

Getting a letter from BMW or Mercedes stating the lights are legal would be a good start. Take that back to court with you. In the meantime, why not just paint over your "illegal" lights and mount some big ol H4 brick style lights on your front grill / bar ? Your missing out on driving that van, I'm sure you worked hard to pay for and that's the horrible part.

If there is anything we can do to help, shoot out some ideas. Here's transport Alberta's legal grounds on E code lights in case that helps any http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Co ... ec2009.pdf

[mararmeisto]

Sounds like the judge had her mind made up before you even stepped into her courtroom. Too bad, really.

You really should get the media involved in this, especially with something like the BMWs and the VWs (I don't think they have DOT lights either) being 'imports' (because all of them are made overseas as well), and then see what kind of response you get from the courts.

[William]

Actually here's an idea. Why don't you take 30 minutes of your time and go down to a Mercedes dealer. Ask to speak to the sales manager and tell him your set on buying a smart car, but concerned because your insurance company and registries agent have told you that the E code headlights will make the car illegal and they will not provide you service until that's changed. I am positive at that point, they will provide some kind of literature that it's acceptable in your province.

I may not know where it says it in the book that it's acdeptable for Manitoba, but I am sure they will

[FalcoColumbarius]

Guilty, with an absolute discharge. This means I don't have to pay the fine ($171) but I can't put the vehicle back on the road, except illegally.
Judge says ALL vehicles in MB without a DOT or SAE stamp on their lights are driving illegally and will eventually be taken off the road. She didn't give me a chance to say that they will never pull a BMW over in a vehicle inspection. There was a Jaguar parked behind the court without DOT or SAE stamp!
Susan

Reference Library.

Are you saying that you were not allowed to speak on your own behalf in a Canadian court of law? I believe that contravenes the Constitution and your rights as a Canadian. Canadian law (outside of Quebec) is based on precedent. If one car company is allowed to use an E-13 headlamp, one cannot say that another car can't use that headlamp. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Get some legal advice.

Falco.

[winnipeg sue]

No, Falco; I'm not saying I wasn't allowed to speak. I think maybe I wasn't clear about what kind of trial this was. It was in traffic court. Provinces are allowed to add requirements in addition to the federal highway traffic act; Manitoba law says there must be DOT or SAE stamp on the light or the lens. My lights don't have that; neither do anyone's if they have E13 lights. The fairness or unfairness of the law could not be debated in that forum, any more than those who were there because they'd been caught speeding could argue that the speed limit where they were caught should have been higher than it is. And the fact that hundreds of other cars have such lights doesn't make them legal; to repeat the speeding analogy, one guy tried to argue that everyone else was going the same speed as he was and he got nowhere in court. Nothing's illegal unless you get caught and I, unfortunately, did. Yes, the law's an ass; more legal advice is not going to change that. A concerted effort by Manitoba Delica owners might, and perhaps we might be joined by others who stand to lose if this law were ever actually applied. But that can't happen on the back of my traffic ticket, I don't think. I got an absolute discharge. It just doesn't put the vehicle back on the road.
Susan

[nxski]

No, Falco; I'm not saying I wasn't allowed to speak. I think maybe I wasn't clear about what kind of trial this was. It was in traffic court. Provinces are allowed to add requirements in addition to the federal highway traffic act; Manitoba law says there must be DOT or SAE stamp on the light or the lens. My lights don't have that; neither do anyone's if they have E13 lights. The fairness or unfairness of the law could not be debated in that forum, any more than those who were there because they'd been caught speeding could argue that the speed limit where they were caught should have been higher than it is. And the fact that hundreds of other cars have such lights doesn't make them legal; to repeat the speeding analogy, one guy tried to argue that everyone else was going the same speed as he was and he got nowhere in court. Nothing's illegal unless you get caught and I, unfortunately, did. Yes, the law's an ass; more legal advice is not going to change that. A concerted effort by Manitoba Delica owners might, and perhaps we might be joined by others who stand to lose if this law were ever actually applied. But that can't happen on the back of my traffic ticket, I don't think. I got an absolute discharge. It just doesn't put the vehicle back on the road.
Susan

I do agree that that would not be the appropriate forum to try to argue the legal validity of your E13 headlights however that does not mean that "the fact that hundreds of other cars have such lights doesn't make them legal" Any vehicle sold new in Canada must be legal and unless there is some giant conspiracy (and I do not personally do not generally believe in conspiracy theories) then as pointed out all smart cars, Mercedes etc have LEGAL E code headlights. I am personally driving with E code and have no intention of ever paying the government money (other than the taxes on them) for the privilege of using them or to be told otherwise, especially as this money will end up funding trials such as yours. I'm very sorry to hear about the situation you've been put through and I hope that others in similar situations will see fit to fight back collectively.

[neilriv]

I just got my 95 Delica. I was gonna order some e-coded lights but now im thinking its might not be worth the money.

I feel sorry for you and hope you can get your van back on the road someday.