Question on Auction Sheets

[delicat]

Hi all,

I have a few questions that I hope this community will be able to answer for me...

1) Can anyone confirm is this is or not a copy of an original auction sheet? I'm wondering if it's more like an inspector's report made to look like an auction sheet.

2) The "auction sheet" should be from the AAAI OYAMA auction house in the Ibaraki prefecture of Japan. Is it what they are supposed to look like?

3) Does anyone know if the auction house always provide a copy of the original auction sheet to the purchaser (BC broker/importer in this case).

4) Do auction houses keep a copy of the original auction sheet once a vehicle is sold and any ways of getting it after the fact?

5) The translation of this "auction sheet", is it consistent with the following:

"Cosmetically, there is a minor scratch on the rear bumper as well as a small dent on the left hand side rear quarter panel above the wheel well. Also, there is minor surface rust underneath on the underbody of the vehicle and on the ladder mounts on the rear hatch. On the interior, the only issue is four small screw holes on the side of the dash from something that had been previously mounted."

And I've been told that there was also a mention of cigarette burn on the seat.

Thanks in advance for your help, as usual this forum is the best place for all Delica info.

[Green1]

1) Can anyone confirm is this is or not a copy of an original auction sheet? I'm wondering if it's more like an inspector's report made to look like an auction sheet.

That looks like a genuine auction sheet

2) The "auction sheet" should be from the AAAI OYAMA auction house in the Ibaraki prefecture of Japan. Is it what they are supposed to look like?

auction sheets generally look like that, however I can't tell you which auction house this one comes from.

3) Does anyone know if the auction house always provide a copy of the original auction sheet to the purchaser (BC broker/importer in this case).

The auction sheet is available to everyone prior to the auction, any importer/broker that doesn't keep a copy is suspect and probably trying to hide something.

4) Do auction houses keep a copy of the original auction sheet once a vehicle is sold and any ways of getting it after the fact?

I don't know.

5) The translation of this "auction sheet", is it consistent with the following:

"Cosmetically, there is a minor scratch on the rear bumper as well as a small dent on the left hand side rear quarter panel above the wheel well. Also, there is minor surface rust underneath on the underbody of the vehicle and on the ladder mounts on the rear hatch. On the interior, the only issue is four small screw holes on the side of the dash from something that had been previously mounted."

And I've been told that there was also a mention of cigarette burn on the seat.

I can't read japanese so I can't confirm that, what I can tell you is that every mark on the picture of the vehicle is a defect, often very minor things (small scratch or ding that you can barely see) but they could be more major.

it basically comes down to whether you trust the person providing you with the sheet.
The other question to ask of your importer is "what recourse to I have if the vehicle arrives and is other than described here?"
The answer from my importer was that they would give me the option of refunding all my money... that was good enough for me.

[delicat]

I've been browsing the auction for a Delica for the last 6-8 months and l've only seen this type of auction sheet twice, both time they had a grade 4/BB and both were from the same BC broker/importer that people on this forum seem to have regularly used.

This is the type of auction sheet that I'm used to see which seems to have a lot more details and mostly hand written. So I'm wondering if it's due to this auction house in particular or if the original auction sheet has been "re-done" with more favorable score?

[jessef]

Bumping this thread up instead of commenting on a recent post in the for sale section.

Can you post the auction sheet ?

My opinion and past experience on auction sheets.

To sum it up, auction sheet/grading is not accurate.

ivoac has a good topic discussion on auction grading and the decline of grading quality going back 5-6 years ago.

It's changed a lot since then (my first import experiences)

every quality importer that I've had the pleasure of knowing, uses a counter-part in Japan to get accurate inspections and grading done. This is separate from the auction sheet that is very generic what you see today.


this is a quote from Wayne who was and still is the first top quality Canadian importer.

He only brings in the best and you pay for that quality.

He is known on all the Canadian JDM forums. Delica.ca is a relatively new forum but nevertheless has gained a solid membership with endless amounts of great information.

Here is my take on the situation in Japan. When I first started importing the auctions seemed very strict when it came to grading the interiors and exteriors, a '4' was actually a '4' and a "B" was a "B" interior.

This seemed to be the case for about 3 years then I watched as the grading fell dramatically and the attitude at the auctions visibly changed for the worse. I started hearing complaints from the exporters that money wasn't being transferred in a timely manor.

Scam artists were surfacing in Canada. One such example of this is one importer here in Canada pulled a serious scam by using an ordered "low grade" HJ61 as an example of the "poor product" coming out of Japan. So he contacted a gent in Japan, who was desiring to expand his export business, but refused to pay for the HDJ81 till after it arrived in Canada so he could examine it in person. The agreement was it would be at this time it would be paid for in full. Once the truck arrived the Canadian didn't pay for the unit but said he would at time of sale to a customer. The truck is still not paid for but is advertised as a "high end unit". This truck has been in the works for nearly a year.

What is the problem with this situation? It affects all of us

The Japanese exporters talk amongst themselves. The good importers in Canada are respected and the shady ones are noted. If a Canadian importer buys a unit where the mileage is questionable (say the mileage is reading 55,000 km but it has been noted that the speedometer cluster was changed out at one time) and posts it up for sale with the mileage “confirmed” (and the importer knows this is a lie) then this is noted. The Japanese exporters, in general, are an honest breed and do not respect this form of deceit.

Also the buyers need to realize that when they buy a unit from an exporter, in most cases the exporter does not check the car over. Most just take your order and bid amount and find you a unit that matches both. The exporter gets his commission by supplying the unit, not by doing the extras that the rare few charge for. Plus there are some shady exporters in Japan but I have only come across a couple. In comparison, there are VERY FEW dealers in Canada that I trust.

The auction grade has fallen dramatically. I have seen grade ‘4’ with rust, with serious dents, with heavy fading and I have seen “B” interiors with rips, heavily smoked in. to me this is unacceptable but you must adjust with what is going on. If you do not have a contact in Japan that visually inspects the unit, that can inspect the unit after the auction unit has been won and is willing to invest at least an hour of his time to test drive the unit then you are buying a high risk unit. You could end up with anything.

[Green1]

Auction sheets are not accurate, but that still doesn't negate their usefulness.
Asking for the auction sheet helps you verify some of the simple things, some dealers will brag a vehicle is "mint" or even claim a specific auction score (4/B for example) and then you find the sheet and is shows a 3/C or comments about rust or major repair work. (of course dealing with a reputable dealer can also solve a lot of this same issue)

I personally like to see the auction sheet, not because I trust it to show all the flaws of a vehicle, but more that I find it to be a baseline for comparison.

[jessef]

I agree on the comparison note. Some don't care, while others do.

[dah_hunter]

I use the auction sheets to decide what cars to get checked out in person.. after having someone look at the car in person for you is best..

I do however use auction sheets to decide what to buy if i im in a hurry. or my clients are that picky.. I have got some real gems just from auction sheets alone..


I however don't trust auction sheets from anyone else unless i can confirm them..

Its way to easy to get your own Auction sheets and wring whatever you want..
Example Blank sheet



And Filled in sheet with whatever you want..





Unless i get the sheet from the Auction house myself.. I dont trust people..

Hope this helps..

[wetcoast]

I would have to somewhat disagree with the above posters.

I found 19 times of 20 the rating is accurate. 3 = Rough and will need work in Canada, 3.5 = fair and acceptable, 4.0 = very nice and sometimes mint, 4.5 extra mint and sometimes like new

The only thing I should mention is that there is no guarantee at the Japanese auction if the vehicle sells for under JPY 300,000 (varies on each auction). This means that if there is mechanical problem (no matter how big or small), the seller will not get in trouble if they fail to disclose this information. You are truely buying it AS-IS where is.

If you have serious doubts about the vehicle you are buying, ask to see the auction sheet. Sometimes the sellers are hiding "R" rating which means accident repaired.

[delicabits]

disclaimer: there are those that know and those that can only speculate.

auction sheets and gradings can vary a fair bit for a number of reasons. 1) who filled the auction sheet out. not all vehicles are inspected at auctions and auction sheets can be submitted by the owner/seller/dealer; 2) city auctions normally have higher quality cars compared to rural auctions and a grade 3 in tokyo could easily be grade 4 kyushu or honshu; 3) if 5 vehicles of the same model and year are at an auction they may be compared to each other rather than the general auction grading, in this situation a vehicle that may be a 4B could easily be given 4A or 3B if slightly cleaner, dirtier, more or less distance than the other 5 vehicles, they will most likely not be all given 4B at the one auction; 4) some auctions put more emphasis on distance where others look at condition; 5) some auctions are very strict on any sort of rust including surface where others are more lenient on surface rust; 6) vehicles that are advertised for sale in dealers yards and also put for sale at auctions will have been cosmetically detailed thus giving an inaccurate reading of what the condition of the vehicle was like when traded in. this is possibly the biggest flaw with the auction system. it is not hard to find vehicles that have been graded as 3C one week but then after being detailed ended up with 4A after being put back into the auction. most people not all think that the condition of the vehicle is how the last owners had and used the vehicle and is a good guide of the use but this is not correct. 7) location and type of vehicle. four wheel drives from up north in honshu are accepted as having done a lot more work engine transmission wise due to snow than a four wheel drive from kyushu and can be graded accordingly.

disclaimer for those that forgot the first whilst looking for faults: the above are just possible reasons and sometimes they happen and some times they don't.

[jessef]

I found 19 times of 20 the rating is accurate. 3 = Rough and will need work in Canada, 3.5 = fair and acceptable, 4.0 = very nice and sometimes mint, 4.5 extra mint and sometimes like new

Where do you get 19 out of 20 from ? There is no such number to make a comparison.

An auction sheet filled out by someone you don't know can have an incorrect assessment or have omissions in it.

Also, it will depend on what you are bidding on.

A delica will have a broad 'rating' range (grade 2 can be as good as the grade 4 rolling up behind it or vice versa) whereas Toyota landcruiser's for example are rated 'harder'. Meaning, a grade 3.5 = fair and acceptable, etc... like your quote above.

You cannot put Delica's or Spacegear's or Pajero's into that 'hard' grading category.

Yesterday (today in Japan), I was looking at 3 of the large auction houses. There are a 3 Spacegear's up for auction that are grade 3.5 and grade 4. I had my counterpart in Japan physically go and view all three.

In his opinion, and mine after seeing the pictures he took, they are no more than grade 2-3 at most. The grade 4 rated one has body rust underneath that was painted over. My counterpart knows what to look for and small things that a broad paint coat will not cover such as trim metal screws that are rusted to almost disintegration and amounts of body filler along the frame channel in the wheel wells (magnet/light test).

Hence, grading can be misleading at auctions on the said Mitsu vehicles.

A well-informed or experienced importer/exporter will know this.

[Green1]

A delica will have a broad 'rating' range (grade 2 can be as good as the grade 4 rolling up behind it or vice versa) whereas Toyota landcruiser's for example are rated 'harder'. Meaning, a grade 3.5 = fair and acceptable, etc... like your quote above.

Any idea why a Delica would be treated differently this way than a landcruiser?

[jessef]

A number of factors

-Supply vs. Demand vs. Cost

People pay a handsome yen for a good condition (above grade 3) Landcruiser. When you start looking at a minimum average of 400-600,000 yen for a 15-25 year old vehicle, the grading become more crucial. If the grading were as broad as the Mitsubishi's, that would deter buyers over a long period of time.

-Reliability/Durability

The Toyota Landcruiser is the top vehicle in the world as a stock 'off road' vehicle.

Toyota's are build under the TMS, the best in the world. Reliability issues will always be more predictable with Toyota.

There is a difference between durability and reliability. Durability is the designed ratings and construction of the individual components. Reliability is the workmanship, the assembly, the long-term service of the various systems without failure and the Toyota Landcruiser (moreso 70 series) is at the top.

A visual grade 3 Landcruiser 70 series will be quite accurate because the frame/body/components are built to last, whereas a Delica's can visually appear to be a grade 3, but underneath, there can be issues that will not pop up until it has gone through a 'real' thorough inspection.

Combine 1 and 2 and there's your answer.

[39Ronin]

The Toyota Landcruiser is the top vehicle in the world as a stock 'off road' vehicle.

That is very debatable, I would say best value to cost in an off road vehicle. Sorry, but the G Wagen and the Rubicon in stock form are better off roaders than the TLCs. I am not debating reliabilty or quality of build (although I could at least on behalf of the G) but performance. This is not just my opinion but the opinion of 3 very well known names in off road and overland travel. Tom Shepard owns a G, Harold Pietschmann (4x4 contracted instructor to the US military) and Scott Brady (owner of Expeditions West).

[jessef]

I could have rephrased it better. I figured the G would hop in here.

Toyota 70 series is at the top for a combination of reliability/durability/serviceability/value.

[39Ronin]

Thanks Jesse! I need that to justify how deep $$ I am in on the G. lol.
Yes, I agree the 70's serries is at the top of the food chain for reliabilty/performance/value!