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What percentage of heads crack?
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:36 pm
by mapleridge818
I'm in the market for a Delica. They offer a lot of things I like, and yet still get good fuel mileage compared to other vehicles that offer the same versatility. The thing that is starting to scare me, is the amount of talk about cracked cylinder heads. I know there are a bunch of different explanations of why and how they crack, but it sounds like a major weak point, and a costly one. I just viewed a Delica tonight, and the owner informed me that he had recently had the head replaced, due to it cracking, and it wasn't cheap to fix.
I know it depends on how you drive, where you drive, how you maintain your van etc, but what percentage of them fail? A friend of mine has a L300, he has it up over 300,000kms now and hasn't had an issue, but it sounds like lots of careful people do have problems. Are the L400s any better than the L300s? Is it worth looking into maybe a gas model instead of diesel? What type of difference is there in mileage if I do go with gas?
I, like most people, have limited amounts of money. I don't really want to deal with a big bill on a new head 3 months after spending $10k on a vehicle, which I'm sure some of you have had to deal with. So what are we looking at for odds, assuming I maintain my van? 5%? 20%? 50%?
Thanks for any info.
Re: What percentage of heads crack?
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:19 pm
by glenn
Mine cracked and I drive very conservatively. A brief survey of the L300's for sale on delica trader of cracked or replaced heads/vs # for sale will give you a good idea of how often this happens. L400's don't have the same weakness. I think the L300s are cooler - but it's hard to overlook.
Re: What percentage of heads crack?
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:34 pm
by FalcoColumbarius
From what I understand there are a few cracked 4M4 heads in the UK. Here is an example:
Diver wrote:Sadly there doesn't even need to be an overheating event, the head cracked on my 4M40 returning from a camping trip last month. The cooling system components are all in top order as is the coolant mix. I have a low coolant alarm and a digital temperature gauge with the sender in the top hose. The temperature never went above 94 C at any point yet coolant was being forced out the expansion tank overflow. Next morning started from cold and the expansion tank is a jacuzzi but still no overheating, probably could have kept driving it for a fair while with the cap removed.
Change the fluids? How did the previous owner drive the vehicle? My wagon is going to be twenty years old on the third of October, I don't think she's unique with her age.
Falco.
Re: What percentage of heads crack?
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:36 pm
by jessef
over the last 6 years? Lots.
Probably most don't even make it on this forum.
http://www.delica.ca/forum/l300-erratic ... -9859.html
Re: What percentage of heads crack?
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:21 am
by Diver
FalcoColumbarius wrote:From what I understand there are a few cracked 4M4 heads in the UK.
Falco.
Absolutely. More than a few. Lots.
The L400 is far more common than the L300 in the UK and the general feeling is that the 4M40 engine is even more likely to crack a head than the 4D56 if anything. It seems this problem has affected a really high percentage of Delicas. Reason? Well poorly maintained cooling system causing an overheat is the obvious (but in my experience most other vehicles still don't crack heads when this happens. Warp, yes, but not crack).
Some put it down to many years of being run with incorrect coolant mix (thereby not getting the anti-corrosion properties).
Personally I think it may just be design and quality of manufacture. Many engines get a reputation for being 'bullet proof' and just keep on going, unfortunately these Mitsubishi engines are not among them.
That said, if the head's been changed, are you in the clear for many more years? I'd really like to know how many have had this problem TWICE ?
Re: What percentage of heads crack?
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:09 pm
by glenn
I'll admit it happened to me twice.
First time it happened was after I had owned my van for a couple years. It was a bummer. Some mistakes by my mechanic led to the destruction of the engine - which was replaced at his cost.
So, I was back at square one, with a used engine and head. Sure enough, within two years, head # 2 cracked. I stopped calling my van Mr Happy - I now call it Mr Cracky. I know you want to know if the new heads are better, so my storey is only anecdotal. People will constantly tell you cracked heads are the driver's fault. Fluids, guages, driving style, blah blah. The fact is, these engines have weak heads. I never once pushed my van hard. I never once let my temperature gauge even once get up to 1/2 way to hot. I drive slow, very slow, I warm my van up before asking anything of it. I don't spike it and back off when the temp starts climbing - I never push it. I keep my rpms low, except when climbing hills, etc, where I keep them around 3000 rpm for cooling. I keep my fluids full and clean. For all this effort, I was rewarded with another blown head. Sure, 80% of the drivers here don't have problems with their heads - but for me, the odds of a cracked head are too high.
I would like to know how many people have blown their heads that DID have a ECG guage.
Also - I've not heard of a lot of L400 head issues. Has this been the experience of members here?
Re: What percentage of heads crack?
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:20 pm
by nxski
People mainly posting problems with their vans on this site so I'm sure the percentage of posts on here about cracked heads is higher than the actual percentage. All I can contribute is that I have had 0% cracked heads personally on a 1991 L300 with over 195,000 (135,000 put on in Canada and 55,000 put on by me in just under 2 years of owning her), I have had my temperature go all the way up to "H", my EGT has displayed 17 and my cooling system was never serviced since coming from Japan. I know I'm playing with fire here but this is the only information about these heads I can give out. That said, from using an EGT gauge I'd say you're much safer. Water temperature can get high without EGT's being high and vice versa.
Re: What percentage of heads crack?
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:38 pm
by jessef
nxski wrote:People mainly posting problems with their vans on this site so I'm sure the percentage of posts on here about cracked heads is higher than the actual percentage.
That made me laugh.
I've seen the opposite over the past 4 years. From my record collecting online (forums, craigslist, kijii, prov ads,etc..) I have 'read' more L300's with cracked heads where the owners are not members on this forum.
posts from forums members with cracked heads = (a)
owners that do not post on this forum with cracked heads = (b)
total percentage of L300 owners with cracked heads = (c)
(a) + (b) = (c)
From my gathering, (b) is greater than (a).
Re: What percentage of heads crack?
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:56 pm
by nxski
jfarsang wrote:nxski wrote:People mainly posting problems with their vans on this site so I'm sure the percentage of posts on here about cracked heads is higher than the actual percentage.
That made me laugh.
I've seen the opposite over the past 4 years. From my record collecting online (forums, craigslist, kijii, prov ads,etc..) I have 'read' more L300's with cracked heads where the owners are not members on this forum.
posts from forums members with cracked heads = (a)
owners that do not post on this forum with cracked heads = (b)
total percentage of L300 owners with cracked heads = (c)
(a) + (b) = (c)
From my gathering, (b) is greater than (a).
This is true however there are more people with Delica's who are not on the forum than there are off the forum as well so this is not surprising. Lets say there are 1000 Delica owners total, 200 are on the forum, 50 have cracked heads. Of those 50, 20 post on the forum about their cracked head. This means that the percentage of people off the forum with cracked heads is lower than the percentage of people on the forum with cracked heads. After all, why do most people join the forum and what are their first posts? Typically they have a problem with their van and are asking the community what to do about it.
Re: What percentage of heads crack?
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:59 pm
by glenn
posts from forums members with cracked heads = (a)
owners that do not post on this forum with cracked heads = (b)
total percentage of L300 owners with cracked heads = (c)
(a) + (b) = (c)
From my gathering, (b) is greater than (a).
Totally! Group (a) is way less willing to admit it here because of the shame factor. There is a tendency here to view cracked heads as driver error.
Re: What percentage of heads crack?
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:05 pm
by konadog
glenn wrote:
Totally! Group (a) is way less willing to admit it here because of the shame factor. There is a tendency here to view cracked heads as driver error.
I'd suggest that cracked heads usually, but not always,
are the result of driver error - revs too low under load, neglecting the cooling system and so on.
I've seen lots of comments over the years from people anxious to get more HP out of these little motors so can only assume those people are pushing hard and over working their motors.
If these motors are subject to cooking then one needs to run them with that in mind.
Just my 2 cents...
Re: What percentage of heads crack?
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:22 pm
by legionnair
I also think people forget these vans are 20 years old they dont have high miles but engine idle time is huge. It would be interesting to see who has had a new head installed how long it lasts. Glen I see your second head was a used engine, so it very hard to comment on the durability. I find it amazing an aluminum head with iron block makes it 20 years. Look at toyota 3.0L they go thru heads/gaskets every 100-130000km.
Just my 2 cents
Dustin
Re: What percentage of heads crack?
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:13 pm
by mapleridge818
Well, the only Delica I've looked at so far, was a L400, and it had a cracked head that had been fixed, so it's defiantly still a problem on the newer vans.
(By the way, if anyone wants a good deal on a L400, the one I looked at was in great shape, 200,000kms, new head, rad, rack, etc, etc and he wants $5000. He just wants the money back he put into it for recent repairs. I would have bought it, but it was a low roof, and I have to have a high roof for what I'm buying it for. Anyhow it's a SWB, sunroofs, pitch/roll gauges etc on vancouver craigslist.)
It seems like it is driver error that causes the head to crack, but it's cracking due to a weak spot. If you baby it, maybe it will live forever, but the reason I like Jap vehicles is because they are indestructible. I drove my Nissan truck, which has an aluminum head, for over an hour with no coolant. (thermostat stuck shut, and puked out the coolant when it overheated) and not only did the head not crack, I took it to a machine shop, and it wasn't even warped. You should be able to abuse a vehicle a bit, and not damage it. I'm not sure I want to buy a Delica if I'm always going to be in fear of breaking it.
I know if something bad happens, people usually say something, or make a post about it, but if you've never had a problem, you aren't going to post that you haven't cracked your head. So how many people have NOT had a problem? I know my friends L300 has gone up some long steep hills and been in really cold, and really hot climates, and has over 300,000kms on it now, and has NOT had a head crack. He drives moderately and maintains his van fairly well.
Any other happy stories?
I've setup a poll in a different thread to survey who has/hasn't had problems. Please check it out even if you haven't had any problems. Thanks
Re: What percentage of heads crack?
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:58 pm
by FalcoColumbarius
mapleridge818 wrote:...Any other happy stories?
Four and a half years, happy story (so far), I push her (Starwagon) every day, but not over the top, there's always a little more that I could push the accelerator when climbing a hill ~ I seldom pan the pedal. I warm her up in the morning enough to bring the head and block to operating temperature before I put any stress on the motor. I change the oil & filter religiously (5,000k); I change the coolant out every two years and run my mixture @ 6/4 water to coolant. Lately I've moved from Mopar to Hepu G11 as it has more mass, ergo more heat displacing properties (weighs like water); apparently also has excellent lubricity and anti corrosion properties.
Falco.
Re: What percentage of heads crack?
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:00 pm
by jessef
this is the paradox of internet forums
you see a small percentage of what is really out there
it's biased and there is no consistency for data collection
it's not like these are the only vehicles with this problem. There are MANY other vehicles both domestic and import with the same issue.
it's the way it is.
if you want a bulletproof vehicle, get a bicycle ! (just kidding)
some consumer grade engines both diesel and gas can take massive abuse
diesel-
Nissan TD42
Toyota 1HZ
Mercedes Benz OM617
gas-
Toyota 22R
Jeep's RENIX 4.0L HO (gear driven)
If you want a vehicle that you can literally abuse to death mechanically and that is cheap, look no further than a Jeep XJ Cherokee. It's local and cheaper for parts than a Toyota Tercel.
But the reality is most people buy Delica's because of the unique factor, novelty/looks and being a van/diesel. If it was just another Chevy Astro/Safari looking vehicle, this forum would be 1/100th the size.
They look cool, different and unique. Gets people talking to you as an owner and that is a good feeling.
Most people don't put reliability/serviceability at the top of the Delica-shopping list. Those that do usually end up with more $'s spent than initially planned.