Delica Canada | Mitsubishi Van Club

I am a certified children's restraint systems technician, and I was recently contacted via email by a concerned parent about how to safely install a carseat in the Delica. Upon checking these forums, I found myself slightly perplexed about some of the modifications that people have made in order to install child restraints.

Firstly--could anyone explain to me why parents have rigged tether points at the sides of seats to use the LATCH anchors to attach the child restraint to? What is the incompatibility with using the seatbelt, as is designed? Considering the crash forces involved, would these points even hold? Would the vehicle seat, which is now supporting way more force than it's designed for, hold? Next--are the add-on tether anchors at the bottom of the vehicle seats considered approved mounting locations for a tether anchor, ensuring that they won't pull loose and potentially become a projectile in the vehicle in a collision?

I'm confused as to why people are modifying seats on top of using child restraints contrary to restraint manuals, in some cases (where the manufacturer specifies that a child restraint cannot be installed on a non-static seat).. My heart was heavy reading some of these modifications, and I'm honestly quite afraid to these children would be in serious danger if there were to be a collision..not to mention that these installations are illegal because they are contrary to the child restraint manufacturers proper use.

Are these kids intended to be crash test dummies? I'm not saying this to start a flame war, but rather to ask this--why not install the child restraint per manufacturers guidelines and without potentially dangerous modifications? You can't replace your kids, and if anything were to happen...wow.

I need this information before I can best advise the parents who have contacted me. If the centre seating positions are incompatible with child restraints, why not use the front passenger seat to install the restraint on, and have an adult ride in the rear? I can imagine all the shocked looks from on-lookers seeing a little one "driving" :) It seems like the safest option--is there something I'm missing here? I would like to believe that people wouldn't intentionally put their children at risk and I would love to hear from those who've installed child restraints in the Delica.

-CG.

CarseatGirl wrote: If the centre seating positions are incompatible with child restraints... I would like to believe that people wouldn't intentionally put their children at risk and I would love to hear from those who've installed child restraints in the Delica.

-CG.

Are YOU saying the center seats are incompatible with child restraints? My child is in the Evenflo Symphony car seat and I find it works quite well. I have followed the manufacturers instruction book to the tee (not one mention about the type of seat it should be attached to, but rather the type of seat belt systems used in conjunction with it). It is very solid with much less than an inch of movement in any direction. I do not use the latch system, as my vehicle was not designed that way, instead using the seat belts and attach the top anchorage tether strap to the back base of the seat (It is forward facing). Could you please state some specific examples of the child restaints that are upsetting you that you have seen here, for warning and reference sake. Thanks

Craig

CarseatGirl, welcome to our little community. My first instinct was to tear you apart for your post. However I can understand that your concerned with the safety of children. But no more so than the members here are concerned with their own children. We are all very willing to discuss the attachment of car seats in Delicas, so please ask more specific questions.

Maybe before this does turn into a flame war you could attach some pictures, with questions, relating to the perplexing modifications that you have seen, like Craig said.

This should prevent members, me included, from jumping down your throat.

I eagerly await your reply.

Welcome to the site....

I know for me finding information about car seats -boosters seats was not as straight forward as one would hope.

I spent some time on the phone with many different agencies. Honestly, I am surprised at the discussions about things with other parents on this topic on how much miss-information is in the public.

These vans have a few different seating options. My 1989 van is simple as it has a benches only (with only lap-belts).


Interesting I was told by one expert to leave middle seat forward facing (It has the option of being forward or rear facing with two sets of seat belts for each position). I found this surprising since any peer reviewed information about which way forward or rear facing seating positions clearly favors rear facing.

Do you know of any study that shows forward facing is safer (not baby seats, but sitting position)?

Sorry I cannot comment on the captain chair modifications people have done (I assumed maybe the seat belt did not lock ratchet when pulled all the way out??)? But, I know of no parent that would do a modification if a non-modification was safer.

Thanks for joining, hope you can help make all the little ones safer.

What are the requirements to be a "certified children's restraint systems technician"?

Better hurry...I'm ready to jump down your thought for your job title alone. Perhaps you could elaborate what a certified childrens restraint system technician is. Are you a university educated engineer with specialization in car seat restraint physics and mechanics or are you a graduate of a 3 week sprott-shaw community college program? The level of your education is very important in factoring how fruitful or fruitless getting into discussions would be. If you can actually provide some useful insight without the 'who will think of the children' drama of your first post then great.

Not to discredit, just for information: http://www.seatsforkidscanada.com/training.html

I was car seat shopping with my sister and brother in law, and it blew me away the amount of marketing and psychological scare tactics were used to sell these things. They basically discredited their old car seat not with facts or stats, or pointing out design flaws or safety concerns, but by using marketing lingo to make it sound redundant and the newest seem better.

"Oh by the way, you have replace this $300 bucket and harness with this $300 bucket and harness since it is no longer 'safe' and we made so much in profits from selling you the last, we were able to grease the right palms to have it declared unsafe. Oh by the way, we're so good at greasing not only is it 'unsafe', your new car of the same manufacturer changed their hook style for us, so you have to upgrade regardless. Oh, oh, and now since we have a clinch on a market we have no doubt created in the name of angry mothers and dead children, we will make sure auto manufacturers will never again install integrated car seats into all of their vehicles and we will change the social acceptability of current safe technologies such as seat belts.. But sir, before I take your $300 (plus HST), may I remind you that you will have to come back and buy another to use until your child is 9 years old or grows facial hair, whatever comes first."

Well, thats what I heard come from his thieving mouth. We shut up and paid. Its the law.

X2....

Carseat industry looks as if they spend more money on lobbying than keeping children safe.
Cannot sell use seats, 5 years unsafe (really bull shit and could be designed more long term), and COMPLETELY unrecyclable...

If the plastic cannot last more then 5 years than use a different product. If designs change and unsafe seats cannot be tracked come up with a better data base. If the use labels and owners manuals are lost use better labels and a better tracking number to for manual downloads. Cannot by US seats because of a different certification (another way to money grab in our market). This industry should be ashamed.

Source: http://www.seatsforkidscanada.com/FAQ.html
A: Car seats expire because:

1. Frequent use and exposure to sunlight or cold weather can damage and weaken plastic (use a different product, or type)

2. Safe-use labels on the products fade or become hard to read (use better labels)

3. Instruction manuals have likely been lost (Data base with downloads for new and updated info)

4. Food, cleaners, drinks, and other materials that have been spilled or used on webbing, buckles, adjusters and other parts may prevent them from working safely (Offer new harness at a fraction of the waste and cost)

5. The history or condition of the car seat or booster seat becomes hard to check (was it in a collision, was it stored in a place or in a way that caused damage to parts, etc?) (think I would remember this or friends would)

6. Safety regulations and standards may have changed, so safer products may now be on the market (Keep a data base that clearly provides this information...most seats I have used are the same designs as 20 years ago)

7. Second or subsequent owners may not get product safety recall notices if problems arise (Data base, how many people even register?)

8. Think of the money lost to the industry if people could use the seats for 10 years? (I added this one)

Hello CSG,

I'm with you. Anyone who has spent a couple years on this site has seen some sketchy arrangements when it comes to installing car seats.

I read and follow the instructions to the letter and despite the age of the van there is nothing preventing the installation according to manufacturer's instructions of the car seats I have used (car seats with harness and now boosters). I do not know why someone would attempt to use the LATCH system on a seat without LATCH anchors. The stock seatbelt works fine (a clip is sometimes needed to lock the belt).

The reason people are attaching the tether to the 2nd row sliding seat as opposed to a tether anchor bolt on the floor of the van is they want to be able to slide the seat forwards and backwards (and maybe swivel it) without readjusting the length of the tether or having the tether impede access to the back row. Whether or not the on-seat anchor point is sufficient is obviously unknown because it has never been tested that way. I'm not comfortable with that so I go with the tether anchor on the floor.

Now the second row seats can swivel and face to the rear and there has been debate about whether or not a child is safe in a car seat when the seat is rearward facing. Also, a recent poster read in his manual that a car seat should not be installed in a seat that can swivel. I am not sure about the reasoning for that unless someone without a clue swivels the seat which could obviously be disasterous for a rear facing infant seat.

I hope you can contribute to this discussion.

chris wrote:The reason people are attaching the tether to the 2nd row sliding seat as opposed to a tether anchor bolt on the floor of the van is they want to be able to slide the seat forwards and backwards (and maybe swivel it) without readjusting the length of the tether or having the tether impede access to the back row. Whether or not the on-seat anchor point is sufficient is obviously unknown because it has never been tested that way. I'm not comfortable with that so I go with the tether anchor on the floor.

Actually that has no bearing on my decision to anchor it to the support bar on the back base of the seat. I feel that these vehicles are engineered to support a +200 pound human with no need to have a separate anchor attached to the floor, so why would it be unsafe to anchor a the back tether to the base? The seat is not designed to eject you and propel you towards the crash or else us adults would need to have boosters and special tethered harnesses to sit in them.

I use the seat belts and the anchorage tether is used to keep the seat even more stable. have you seen some of the attachment points for that tether in new vehicles? My wife has a 2010 Santa Fe and it has some cheap little plastic piece that pops up on the back of the rear seat and there is a little bar in there no thicker than a pencil to hold the tether. Is that safer? The bar going along the back of the middle seat base is very thick and solid. I feel way more comfortable anchoring it there than on the newer vehicle.

Craig

I am hoping you can explain how anchoring a child car seat to the anchor points where the vehicle seat is anchored to the floor is not a good thing. If the vehicle seat anchor is not sufficiently strong enough to hold a child car seat then for sure it is not strong enough to support an adult. Call me crazy, but I think the manufacturers built and tested their anchors with adults in mind. If they didn't, I am sure that the lawyers would have pointed it out by now. Unfortunately, the sceptic in me, thinks that a significant amount of information regarding child seats has been generated by the seat manufacturers and the "safety" people just use this info for their recommendations. Probably not the best system.

Rod

drrod wrote:I am hoping you can explain how anchoring a child car seat to the anchor points where the vehicle seat is anchored to the floor is not a good thing. If the vehicle seat anchor is not sufficiently strong enough to hold a child car seat then for sure it is not strong enough to support an adult. Call me crazy, but I think the manufacturers built and tested their anchors with adults in mind. If they didn't, I am sure that the lawyers would have pointed it out by now. Unfortunately, the sceptic in me, thinks that a significant amount of information regarding child seats has been generated by the seat manufacturers and the "safety" people just use this info for their recommendations. Probably not the best system.

Rod

Agreed! That's what I am saying. All this hype, panic, and paranoia. Next thing you know they will tell me I can't eat steak.

Craig

a seatbelt anchor point has to withstand close to 3000 pounds of force per anchor point.

on the captains chairs, there are 4 studs that hold the seat to the rails and are probably engineered to withstand a certain force acting together and like ly designed as a sheer force. looking at the size of the studs each of those bolts is not designed to hold the 3000 pound force acting in a stretch especially since the nuts used have only a limited number of threads engaging and even less with a new anchor point spacer under the nut, now you have reduced the number of turns the nut is engaged and reduced the strength. legally a seabelt anchor bolt has to be a fine thread 7/16th bolt from what i can remember. most seatbelt anchor bolts of this size have a minimum number of threads that have to be engaged, usually 9 turns.

another thing to note, is for the captains chairs that the belts do not ratchet, you can purchase a belt shortening buckle that will shorten the stock belt to the proper length. this buckle looks like the buckle that comes with most child seats but it is much heavier duty. do not use the ones that come with yoru child seat to shorten the belt they are not strong enough and will not handle the required force.

on the captains chairs, there are 4 studs that hold the seat to the rails and are probably engineered to withstand a certain force acting together and like ly designed as a sheer force. looking at the size of the studs each of those bolts is not designed to hold the 3000 pound force acting in a stretch especially since the nuts used have only a limited number of threads engaging and even less with a new anchor point spacer under the nut, now you have reduced the number of turns the nut is engaged and reduced the strength. legally a seabelt anchor bolt has to be a fine thread 7/16th bolt from what i can remember. most seatbelt anchor bolts of this size have a minimum number of threads that have to be engaged, usually 9 turns.

This is one of the reasons I replaced the "stock" bolts with Grade 8 bolts that were 1/4 in. longer (same thread -fine- as the stock bolt). The shear strength of a a 1/2 in. (very close to size of stock) grade 8 bolt is 21,00 lbs and the tensile strength is 24,000 lbs (correct me if I am wrong. It has happened before). So, anchoring the seat to 4 of these (2 for the belt and 2 for the tether) should be adequate I would think. The G forces measured in a 200 mph Indy ca,r near frontal impact crash, approached 50G's. As good as the Delica is, I don't think it can go 200 mph. So, I am no engineer, but take a 40lb child + 20 lb car seat, subject them to a near frontal impact in an Indy car crash and you have 3000 lbs. I am not an engineer, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn once but I think that bolt failure is the least of your worries at the speeds of a Delica in a frontal impact crash.

BTW - I don't use the Delica's seat belts to anchor the car seat. I use separate seat belts (non ratcheting) bolted to their own anchors, as are the tethers.

Rod

I am just pointing out the basics of seatbelt mounting points for anyone else contemplating doing this and am not judging your design. its your vehicle, your child and your decision and no one elses.
I have not seen your design so cannot comment on it. but i am interested to see the way the tethers are mounted to the points, and also see the angle of the belt and length to see how the seat would react up on the belt stretching on impact since the mounting angle and length of the belt sounds like it is different.