Propane injection & Bypass oil filter

[nxski]

If you can figure out how much your fuel savings are and how often you fill-up compared with how much the system cost then you can get a rough idea of how long you'd have to drive the vehicle before you'd start seeing savings. I'd think this would be extremely beneficial knowledge for others planning to follow in your footsteps. If you have some noticeable power gains and less wear on the engine then even if it didn't pay off in fuel savings there's still a good reason for the install. My friend did a full propane conversion on his truck and found that he would start saving money after 3 years of normal driving (a different scenario but the same kind of idea).

I found that with my oil bypass unit, using Royal Purple oil (which is expensive) and changing the filters every time (also fairly expensive) that I start saving money after only 15,000km of driving. This is compared with using Fram filters with Royal Purple oil and changing every 5000km. Currently I'm changing my oil every 15,000km (I would do it every 20,000 if I had the means to get the oil tested and make sure it's still clean). This would take a little longer to save if I'd actually bought the unit too (@ $200 it would likely save money after about 30,000km). Still, each oil change costs a little under twice as much as it used to because off extra oil and more / more expensive filters but the oil only has to be changed every 20,000km so that's a savings of roughly $250 per 20,000km of driving with the bypass unit.

I know my math isn't exact here since my calculations are at home and I'm doing mental math and trying to remember figures but I definitely found the system pays off and quickly at that. I think figures like this would also be great to have for the propane injection system.

[Drumster]

I'm liking this P/I unit more and more. I didn't have to do this; it was essentially just a project for fun... it's pretty much a hobby, really. My van was fine before but it's even more fun to drive now with the added punch! I'm at a point where I'm quite happy with the results, getting no odd engine sounds and am upping the propane very slightly every few days before checking it out through its range. Overall I'm just getting familiar and establishing a feel for it. According to what I've read, eCo-shot installers in Aus. start with a lower flow of propane and adjust up after a number of Kms so as to gradually burn out accumulated deposits from combustion chamber etc. Then customer goes back and the setting is raised. Makes perfect sense.

As far as one of these systems "paying for itself", I see it this way: I'm keeping the engine's oil cleaner, getting better performance, have increased my range and am probably saving on fuel costs right now. The system is very simple and can easily be swapped over from current vehicle to next. When... I mean IF I ever sell this van, I'll definitely remove the P/I system, tank and all, and mount it in whatever my next diesel vehicle ends up being. Any costs involved in switching over will be minimal.

[Drumster]

Time for an update on the P/I system:

With the settings I arrived at fairly early on I ended up burning just about one full tank of propane to a full a tank of diesel. Whoa!

What I had done was back the propane level off to a point just short of pinging and then backing it off just a bit more for the engine’s safety. I was thinking “the more propane the better’. It’s clear to me now that this is not the case.

What I’m finding now, after having backed it off considerably more since then, is that it seems to actually run just as well with less propane in the mix - to a certain point. Whether this is due to less O2 being displaced or what, I don’t know. But I keep backing it off and it keeps on running pretty much the same but on less propane... so backing it off hasn’t resulted in poorer performance as yet, only less propane consumption.

I’ve lowered the “start time” (degree of boost at which P/I begins to flow) and I think I’ve got it about as low as I can. At around 1800 RPM is where the flow starts.It’s a very small amount at that level but still noticable. It appaers to me that the volume of injected propane, if viewed as a curve on a graph, does not increase proportionately to the inceased air flow. Instead, it’s graph is much steeper that that of the increasing air. So I determined that the best thing to do is start at the higher RPMs and make sure the desired effect is there and let the lower end of the scale take care of itself.

What I’ve been doing is, with vehicle parked and P/I turned off, I raise RPM to about 3100 or 3200 RPM (I don’t want to rev it too much higher than that in neutral) and hold very steady as I then switch on P/I. I’ve backed propane off fairly substantially a few times before doing this and I keep finding that when I hit that switch I get a real jump in RPM. So evidently more is not better.

For me, the whole idea is not to come up with a “racing van” but rather to get a cleaner burn with a cleaner engine, better fuel economy and range and have a bit more pep as an added bonus.

So now, with that in mind I’ve decided to use the propane gauge as my primary guide and continue lowering the flow and monitoring my fills over a period of time until I reach a point where I’m going through maybe four tanks of diesel to one propane. I’m going to play it by ear for the most part but somewhere more or less in that range would be good I think. Certainly 1:1 is waaaay out of whack.

To be continued....

[legionnair]

Thanks for the update, a lot of us are very curious to hear your outcome

Dustin

[rezdiver]

keep in mind that when you are testing in the parking lot by increasing the RPM will give you a very different outcome to driving down the road. the turbo will not kick in just because you are raising the rpm.
its a combination of the exhaust flow and the flow created by increased exhaust temperatures under load.
this will combine to greatly increase your air intake under load, which will totally change the propane injection mix.

did you put in a boost gage?

[jessef]

good to hear you're seeing results Tim. Keep it coming.

[Drumster]

keep in mind that when you are testing in the parking lot by increasing the RPM will give you a very different outcome to driving down the road. the turbo will not kick in just because you are raising the rpm.
its a combination of the exhaust flow and the flow created by increased exhaust temperatures under load.
this will combine to greatly increase your air intake under load, which will totally change the propane injection mix.

did you put in a boost gage?

Yes, I have no boost gauge.

I appreciate the input and I don't doubt there are numerous factors & variables to do with load and exhaust involved here; most of which I don't have a clue about.

I do understand enough to realize it can get pretty complicated if I let it. I'm trying to keep it as non-technical as possible, which is why my latest thought is to use consumption averages to determine my propane flow setting.

I recently re-read some data from manufacturer. They claim "Concentration in engine combustion air is less than 3% by volume." They also advise using a propane tank equal to 20 - 25% of diesel capacity. (But they don't say if this is based on diesel/propane fills and consumption of one:one or what. It's a mystery. But it makes sense to me that you'd want to fill up propane much less often than diesel because propane is harder to find etc.)

My tank is 7.9 US gal (approx 30 litres) but as tanks are filled to only 80%, I don't know if that's actual propane fill capacity or simply a figure indicating tank displacement; another mystery. For argument's sake, I'm assuming that's an atmospheric displacement figure which should mean mine properly holds about 24 litres of liquid propane. So I have, I'm guessing, 24 litres of propane at my disposal to use with 65 or so litres of diesel.

As for the "...less than 3% by volume." thing, I have no clue how I can use this data but it doesn't sound like a lot of propane.

As mentioned in a recent post, I'd like to get about four diesel fills to one of propane but I'm realizing, almost as I write this, that I need more data; I could be way off the mark. Specifically in terms of what the manufacturer expects the consumption ratio to be based on their 20 - 25% thing. Nothing's carved in stone and it's possible I may end up being happy with much higher consumption than I expected.

So, I'm going to do some digging around and see what else I can come up with. I may have to live with much difference consumption than I thought. Maybe one to one fills are the norm. I know I'll eventually arrive at a workable balance of consumption, performance and risk. But it's a work in progress and so far I'm still having fun with it.

Also, in light of the apparent proclivity of 4M40 heads cracking and regardless of precautions I've already taken, I especially don't want to take a great deal of risk with these settings. A big Ford or Cummins or something like that might be different but I may be better off going by a different set of standards with the little Mitsu.

So I'm off for a refresher at eCo-shot Aus site and Diesel Performance Products to review things I've likely read before but which didn't seem pertinent when I was preoccupied with all the installation issues etc.

I'll let you know what I come up with.

Cheers!

[Drumster]

First thing, I went to the eCo-shot sites as I said I would and really found nothing definitive about any sort of propane to diesel ratio. Nothing.

Next item: Well, I happen to be sick as hell right now and feeling like absolute crap but decided I could use a bit of fresh air where no-one could catch my bug... so I went for a drive in the country this afternoon:

I first topped up on both diesel and propane in Guildford and headed straight onto Hwy #1. Went as far as Chilliwack driving as fast as 140 kmh at times but averaged about 110+.

At one of the eastern Chilliwack exits I left the hwy and took in some back roads, including a few km on gravel and some fairly steep hill climbs etc. ... even put it in 4WD briefly. There are some beautiful homes up in those hills just south of the Fraser.

After about forty minutes of poking around that way I made my way back to Hwy 1 and then exited again to Fraser Hwy just west of Abbotsford. I stayed on it, stop ‘n go, all the way back to Surrey and into the station where I’d filled up initially.

According to my odometer I had covered exactly 160 km.

Results? I used up 13.5 litres of diesel and 1.42 litres of propane over that 160 Km at a cost of $9.13.

After some quick pokes at the calculator I found that I’d used 8.43 litres of diesel plus .8875 litres of propane to go 100 K.

Not too shabby eh? Particularly when you consider the variety of terrain I covered!

Makes me curious about how I’d do traveling strictly hwy at a steady 100 or 110 kmh. That’s a trip for some other day.

[dfnder]

That is nothing short of amazing!

[legionnair]

Sounds very promising, keep the updates coming

[mapleridge818]

So if you're doing 8.5L/100kms, what were you doing before?
It's absolutely priceless to hear, directly from the person with the vehicle, the results of a install like this. You can read all the write-ups you want, but who knows, maybe those write-ups are written by the companies trying to sell you their product.
I'm always very skeptical about any fuel mileage kit type thing. Hydrogen, meth injections, special air swirling intakes etc. 99% of the time it's BS. I'm really looking forward to hearing continued updates directly from the ginny pig...I mean test pilot...

[.:FoRuM56:.]

Propane sounds like it might be worth while..

I'm currently running Methanol in my 4d56 and although it's noticable, the engine doesn't flow or produce enough power to really take advantage of it. I'm running a 3gph nozzle at 200psi, and when activated I can feel a "bump" in power but no drastic reduction in EGT's.

I will say these engines can only handle about 60% Methanol by weight, thats when it starts to go BANG lol.

[lrp374]

Anything new to report in the last 2 months? this looks like such a good idea.

[Mr. Flibble]

I would be interested to hear about updates as well.

I know you have not put in a boost gauge, but have you considered a pyro? EGTs are always something to watch when adding an extra fuel to the mix.

[WhoGotTheFunk]

Hi there, just wondering if there's any update to Drumsters install? I'll hopefully be getting an L400 within the year and am very curious if he's getting very good fuel economy with the set up?