EGTs high, Truck Sluggish: IP banjo filter clogged

User avatar
Growlerbearnz
Posts: 1929
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:58 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: Delica P25W
Location: New Zealand

EGTs high, Truck Sluggish

Postby Growlerbearnz » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:44 am

You've done what I would do to re-tension the belt, so I reckon you're all good. I would probably have replaced the belt, as they're not supposed to stretch, but I'm not 100% confident that 2 degrees is going to cure your problem.

15,000km over 22 years is interesting. I'm now thinking more about the possibility of a stuck advance plunger- maybe it sat for a while, and the diesel turned to sludge, which fell into the advance mechanism? Though you'd think it would show up pretty quickly, rather than 20k later...

I threw the rockers in there because I once had an engine with a bunch of odd symptoms, and all the usual stuff checked out fine- until the rocker cracked, and wrote the head off. I figured that since you had the timing cover off, it's easy to pop the rocker cover off as well and just check them.
Nothing says "poor workmanship" more than wrinkles in the duct tape.

204explorer
Posts: 167
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:19 am
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: l400
Location: CA

EGTs high, Truck Sluggish

Postby 204explorer » Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:00 pm

Hey guys, I am reading this with interest and thinking that your barking up the wrong tree. In my experience with diesel engines ( larger ones with gear timing) , two degrees won't be that noticeable. I often set the timing off from the factory spec by more than two degrees. We advance the timing (injects more degrees before TDC.
I got a feeling that Ralph is having an issue with the fuel supply. That much oil in the fuel increase the viscosity and the supply pressure to the pump is incorrect. In the long run this will damage the advance piston in the injection pump.
This is just me thinking out loud about my experiences with Diesels.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

User avatar
Growlerbearnz
Posts: 1929
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:58 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: Delica P25W
Location: New Zealand

EGTs high, Truck Sluggish

Postby Growlerbearnz » Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:07 pm

204explorer wrote:two degrees won't be that noticeable.

You're absolutely correct. A slipped tooth would have offset the timing by 14 degrees (which would have accounted for the symptoms) but it took me a while to notice that this one's only off by 2 degrees. In my defence, the crank pulley should always line up with TDC so it was probably a good idea to re-tension the belt anyway.

204explorer wrote:That much oil in the fuel increase the viscosity and the supply pressure to the pump is incorrect. In the long run this will damage the advance piston in the injection pump.


That's my thinking now too. Ralph's gone back to mostly diesel, but I suspect the advance plunger is now stuck in the retard position.
Nothing says "poor workmanship" more than wrinkles in the duct tape.

Ralph in Winnipeg
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:42 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: 94 Strada
Location: Winnipeg

EGTs high, Truck Sluggish

Postby Ralph in Winnipeg » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:12 am

Thanks for all the input, I really appreciate it! I looked this morning but did not find where the advance plunger is on the IP. I remember reading it needs to be set with a dial indicator which I have but.... Could someone point me in the right direction / diagram please?

I will get the truck back in order tonight and see if the timing adjustment did the trick but I want to prepare for other possibilities.

Thanks, Ralph in Winnipeg

User avatar
Growlerbearnz
Posts: 1929
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:58 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: Delica P25W
Location: New Zealand

EGTs high, Truck Sluggish

Postby Growlerbearnz » Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:12 pm

VE-plunger.jpg
VE-plunger.jpg (57.65 KiB) Viewed 1423 times


There are two plungers in a VE pump- the timing advance, and the injection/distributor plunger. If the timing advance plunger was stuck it would cause your symptoms.

The advance plunger is labelled "timer" on the first diagram, so I'll call it that for now. Its function is similar to the ignition advance on a gas engine- fuel takes a fixed amount of time to burn regardless of engine speed, so when the engine is running faster you need to inject the fuel a bit earlier to give it time to burn fully before the exhaust valve opens. As engine speed increases, increasing fuel pressure in the pump pushes on the timer, which rotates the roller holder so the rollers hit the high spots on the cam disk earlier. Like this:

timingadvance.jpg
timingadvance.jpg (251.42 KiB) Viewed 1423 times


Incidentally, fuel pump internal pressure is controlled by a tiny orifice on the pump outlet. Thicker fuel will increase internal pump pressure, which would advance injection timing more- which is odd, since your symptoms imply *retarded* injection timing. Which is why I think the advance plunger might be stuck. Maybe the engine oil loosened some sludge that straight diesel didn't touch?.

The injection/distributor plunger is the bit that creates the high pressure for the injectors. Initial timing setup is done by measuring how far it has moved when the engine is at a certain angle (1mm at 9 degrees, on your engine, from memory). Actual setting procedure should be in one of the workshop manuals. I doubt your issue is caused by incorrect initial timing, but if you remove or rebuild the injection pump you'll probably need to set your initial timing.

There's a great pictorial thread here: http://gnarlodious.com/Vanagon/Bosch_Pump/-Rebuild showing how easy/terrifying (pick one) it is to rebuild a VE pump.
Nothing says "poor workmanship" more than wrinkles in the duct tape.

Ralph in Winnipeg
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:42 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: 94 Strada
Location: Winnipeg

EGTs high, Truck Sluggish

Postby Ralph in Winnipeg » Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:34 pm

I pick terrifying. I was thinking more along the lines of carefully remove this doodad, spray carb cleaner on it and then carefully reassemble......oh boy....let's hope/pray The timing belt adjustment is adequate.

User avatar
Growlerbearnz
Posts: 1929
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:58 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: Delica P25W
Location: New Zealand

EGTs high, Truck Sluggish

Postby Growlerbearnz » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:10 pm

Ralph in Winnipeg wrote:carefully remove this doodad, spray carb cleaner on it and then carefully reassemble


It is possible to remove just the timer cover plates (steps 39-43) and see if the plunger can be moved by hand, but I imagine it's difficult to do on the engine- and once you've removed the pump you might as well do a full rebuild. Remove *all* the doodads.

Those timer plunger cover plates are known to be leaky- I've seen a couple of pumps now where someone has removed the plates and used silicone form-a-gasket instead of just replacing the O-ring. If silicone gets into the plunger it'll gum it up something fierce.
Nothing says "poor workmanship" more than wrinkles in the duct tape.

Ralph in Winnipeg
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:42 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: 94 Strada
Location: Winnipeg

EGTs high, Truck Sluggish

Postby Ralph in Winnipeg » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:46 am

Well the timing is spot on and the truck is a bit better. My next course of action is to purge the IP with some Seafoam. Mostly because it is non invasive and I have the Seafoam here. On the Strada there is more room than on the Delica, I can see the timing plunger housing and can sort of easily access it and remove the 2 bolts holding in on. 2nd step will be to remove that cover and see if I can move the plunger, see what's going on in there, hopefully free things up.....If these 2 things don't work well might have to bring it somewhere......

Ralph in Winnipeg
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:42 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: 94 Strada
Location: Winnipeg

EGTs high, Truck Sluggish

Postby Ralph in Winnipeg » Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:29 pm

Purge made no difference, oh well. I removed the timer cover,
IMG_0384.JPG
IMG_0384.JPG (31.28 KiB) Viewed 1391 times
and I see the plunger.
IMG_0385.JPG
IMG_0385.JPG (30.99 KiB) Viewed 1391 times
I pushed it with my finger and it did not move at all. How far should it move? Are we talking thousands of an inch or a few millimeters? There is a snap ring visible in the picture that I could remove and then the plunger could move toward the opening? Taking a break for now......

User avatar
Growlerbearnz
Posts: 1929
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:58 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: Delica P25W
Location: New Zealand

EGTs high, Truck Sluggish

Postby Growlerbearnz » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:56 pm

It moves a couple of centimetres at least during normal operation. You are pushing against a spring and the cam gears so it won't move freely, but I wouldn't have thought it was *that* hard to push. Disclaimer: I've not actually done what you're doing, so I'm guessing how hard the plunger would be to move. I can't think of any reason why it *wouldn't* move though.

I would try removing the snap ring and see if the plunger moves outwards at all. It may be that a small amount of movement is enough to free up whatever is holding it in place? It shouldn't be able to come out entirely since you have to dismantle the interior of the pump to get at the timing pin (steps 23-36 in the rebuild guide).
Nothing says "poor workmanship" more than wrinkles in the duct tape.

Ralph in Winnipeg
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:42 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: 94 Strada
Location: Winnipeg

EGTs high, Truck Sluggish

Postby Ralph in Winnipeg » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:37 pm

A couple centimeters! I should notice that! Could it be fluid behind the plunger holding it firm? I'll try to loosen the cover on the other side let the pressure off and see what happens. Now going out with the lads to try a few of the new beers being made here in Winnipeg at some start up breweries and not think about the IP. Well they're motor heads too so we'll certainly discuss it and then move on!

Ralph in Winnipeg
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:42 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: 94 Strada
Location: Winnipeg

EGTs high, Truck Sluggish

Postby Ralph in Winnipeg » Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:52 pm

I wasn't able to push the timing plunger but I could pull it. I did not remove the snap ring as I apparently don't have snap ring pliers small enough to get in there. It moved freely back and forth so I moved it 20-30 times and put the cover back on. Truck felt better last night but I'm going to have to take it for a good drive tomorrow when I have time. Fingers crossed.

I had a good chat with the service manager at Western Turbo, that my usual mechanic recommened. He takes his dodge there. He didn't think fueling issue but lack of air issue. ....Boost is 10 psi but perhaps there is a leak somewhere? He asked if the boost is pre or post turbo, I'll have to check. He also mentioned the android pin.....it could be sticking. Food for thought, I'll have to do more research and check out the turbo. Thanks to all contributors! Ralph in Winnipeg

204explorer
Posts: 167
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:19 am
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: l400
Location: CA

EGTs high, Truck Sluggish

Postby 204explorer » Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:17 pm

This topic has become way too interesting and relevant for me. I am currently driving my new to me first generation L400 back to Manitoba. The missus is driving it for the first time. We are just about entering MB again. My van is sluggish to only under hard acceleration and higher rpms. I got a new fuel filter to install once I get back home.
Ralph, one thing I normally do first when diagnosing low power issues is to check the fuel supply pressure at the IP. Most pumps require a few psi at the pump. (3-5 psi are common). Ideally I use a clear hose so I can see any large air bubbles. Often it's the very basic things that get looked over.
The next thing I will check is my boost pressure. Have you checked your waste gate linkage? I will do these things next week. Maybe we have a similar issue.
Sorry by the way, I didn't mean to hijack your topic.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

User avatar
Growlerbearnz
Posts: 1929
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:58 pm
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: Delica P25W
Location: New Zealand

EGTs high, Truck Sluggish

Postby Growlerbearnz » Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:22 pm

Ralph in Winnipeg wrote:He asked if the boost is pre or post turbo


Err... not sure what he's referring to there. Since it's the turbo that's doing the boosting, *all* boost is post-turbo. Some engines measure boost post-intercooler (at the inlet manifold, usually) but we don't have an intercooler, so boost should be the same at the turbo outlet as it is at the inlet manifold.

Ralph in Winnipeg wrote:He also mentioned the android pin.....it could be sticking.


Now there's a thought. That would explain the lack of power, but I'd expect a stuck aneroid pin to cause low EGTs rather than high. Still, here's a neat video showing how to check/free up the boost pin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvnQEIcrgWs
Nothing says "poor workmanship" more than wrinkles in the duct tape.

204explorer
Posts: 167
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:19 am
Member's Photo Album: http://www.delica.ca/Photos/
Vehicle: l400
Location: CA

EGTs high, Truck Sluggish

Postby 204explorer » Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:29 pm

I had an other thought about your issue. You mentioned burning engine oil as a fuel source. Especially diesel engine oil has a lot of detergents. Some seals and O-rings don't like that. I.e you should not lube the O-rings on wet cylinder sleeves but rather use soap or vegetable oil. The reason is that the detergents will harm the rings. Might not be the problem but something to keep in mind.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Return to “Fuel Delivery, Fuel & Additives”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest