Gas>Diesel?

[mapleridge818]

Well, I'm well aware this post will strike an augment from the bulk of the population on here, but I've been left scratching my head for some time now, and can only seem to come to one conclusion. Gasser Delicas are superior to or equal to in every way.
I'll run down a list of comparisons, and then break them down to explain my reasoning:

Waiting for glow plugs: advantage gas
Waiting for warm up: advantage gas
Waiting for cool down: advantage gas
Smell: advantage gas
Smoothness/vibrations: advantage gas
Sound: advantage gas
Fuel cost: advantage gas
Fuel mileage: Push*
Initial cost to buy: advantage gas
Speed/power: advantage gas
Environmental impact: advantage gas
Maintenance costs: Push*

So the first 3 things on the list, involve waiting. Waiting for glow plugs, warm up before driving, and cool down before shut off. Some people do none of these, but most people do to a certain degree. It's just annoying. I know it's not a lot of time, but I have better ways to spend my time. When we took my friends diesel l400 snow boarding, we get to the top of the mountain, just out, head to the back hatch and start putting on our gear, while having to breathe wonderful diesel fumes while we wait for the turbo to cool. At the end of the day, get to the van, fire it up, to let it warm up before driving, and again, head to the back of the van to ditch our gear, and suck in more fumes. Could this be avoided by trying to load and unload everything from the side door, probably, but depending how the wind is blowing, it might not help. In a gas, you shut it off the instant you come to a stop, and fire it up 10 seconds before driving away. It also seems that diesels take far longer to reach operating temperature. So if you have short trips to work etc, you never get heat, you get poor mileage, and can also do harm to engine components. My friend drives his diesel in northern alberta, and has a hard time building heat in extreme cold. At ilde it will never get to operating temp.

We have 5 senses, and though I'm not sure who wins the taste test, or vision test, I find diesels offensive to the other 3 of my senses. Whenever I run a diesel vehicle in my shop, I'm told to turn the exhaust fan in the paint booth on, to evacuate the harsh fumes. I don't know if exhaust from a diesel is any less healthy to breathe than that of a gas vehicle, but running a diesel in a small shop for 20 seconds can choke everyone out. When you drive behind them, you can smell them. They stink, end of story. They also vibrate, a lot. My friend has a l400 diesel, and I have the l400 gas. I can't believe how much his shakes compared to mine. When idling at a light, I have no sensation of my van running, but the diesels have a very clear, and constant shake to them. I like smooth in my daily driver, if my gas delica shook like a diesel, I'd assume it had a major misfire. Last but not least, sound. Diesels make a freaking racket. It sounds like someone is shaking a box of rocks under the hood. Again, if my gas sounded like that, I'd have to put it down. I know some people will claim they like all the sensations of a diesel, smell, sound and vibration, but the problem is, you can't make any of it go away. I can make my gas louder, and could probably make it vibrate if I wanted, but if you have a diesel, you can't ever make it smooth like a gas. When I get in my daily driver, after a long day, I'd like a nice, smooth, quite, odourless ride home.

Now the big selling point of diesels is the saving in fuel. There are a lot of factors that play into this. How you drive, where you drive, how much each fuel costs. Again, my friend in alberta spends a lot of extra time warming up his diesel, and it takes a very long time to reach operating temperature, so he is getting very poor mileage. Would a gas get poor mileage in those conditions, for sure, but I think it would fare better when it comes to getting up to temperature. I drive 10 minutes to work. If I were to let a diesel idle in the driveway before I left, and still not be at full operating temp by the time I got to work, I think my mileage would be very poor. My gas van gets 10 seconds of warm up, and it to full temp in 5 or 6 minutes. I also find the gas model accelerates much faster from a stop and has better throttle response. If I drive it much more cautiously, and make it perform like a diesel, I can almost match the same mileage. I average 14L/100km, and do a lot of city driving, and short trips. My friends diesel is doing 12-13L/100km, when he is doing longer road trips. When it's -40 and he is doing short trips he doesn't even keep track, but probably more like 20L/100km. But at about 1.5L/100km difference, your looking at about a 10% fuel savings, take into consideration, I've seen diesel in bc as much as 15 cents a litre more than gas, but on average about 5 cents, or lets say 4%, so now you're at a 6% savings, and you need to add a fuel additive to a diesel, what's that, $5 a tank? $10 a tank? Your 6% savings is gone. If you are doing all highway driving, and long trips, like a truck driver, you probably save a considerable amount, but for a short commute vehicle, you might get better mileage from a gas, or at least no worse. Also, I'm not taking into consideration the mileage of the 4cyl gas model. I know very little about it, because they are rare, but I assume they are even better than the v6?

Diesels are slow. I don't need a rocket ship, but sometimes it's nice to be able to get to 100kph BEFORE you have to merge onto the freeway. Also, I like to be able to go up hills, and in BC we have many. I don't want to baby my van going up the snow shed, worried about cracking the head or overheating.

Gas are cheaper to buy. I got mine for $7800 with 106,000kms, super exceed. My friend had to pay $11,000 for the same condition van in diesel. $3000 is a lot. Even if the gas is harder on fuel, the difference would take hundred of thousands ok kms to make a $3000 difference.

Diesels are worse for the environment. There are many facts and different factors to take in in this debate, but what comes out the tail pipe of a diesel is more harmful than that of a gas, especially in older diesels, like the delicas we have here now.

And last but not least, maintenance. People love to claim diesels as low maintenance, but I'm not sure how anyone ever came to that conclusion. Diesels use more oil at ever oil change, probably twice as much. Diesel oil is more money isn't it? Oil filters are far more money for a diesel. Fuel filters are more. Injector pumps are what $2500? A fuel pump is 10% of that. The gas model has no turbo to rebuild. From what I understand the diesels have a head cracking issue, I haven't heard that about the gas. If something were to go like a head on my gas, I can just get a used motor from a montero for under $1000 and put it in. What's a used diesel worth? I can't think of one way a gas model requires more maintenance, or has more expensive maintenance than a diesel. I guess it needs 6 spark plugs every 100,000kms.

I don't mean to bash diesels, but I'm sick of people bashing gassers. When I drove my friend to pick up his diesel at a known delica dealer in BC, the owner of the dealer basically laughed at me when he saw my gas. He bragged how he has never imported a gas and never would, why bother, and yet couldn't give me a reason why not. I think I just made a fair list of reasons why not to buy a diesel.
I wasn't always bias, I almost bought a diesel before I found my gas. I found something unique about the diesel. It just sits there purring away, slow and cumbersome, but I'm really glad I didn't buy it. It's charm would have worn off within a week, and I would have been sick of the rattling, vibrating, slow stinkyness of it, really quick.

And flame away!

[Nukes25]

while I am new to the delica world, my last diesel, a 94 Toyota Hilux surf ( 4runner) with the 3 liter turbo, outperformed the gas variant in mileage, power, ect.

I didnt have a smoky problem with it, diesel odour from the exhaust was minimal ( and it was short exhaust off the turbo with a magnaflow straightthrough on there).

While maintenance was more costly, it was only slightly more than the gasser. ( although the injector pump did spring a leak, replacement was 2400- just found a used unit for 300 from the UK)

I know the 2.5 is a slow turtle, thats what happens with low hp, but the diesels win in torque, so if you need to tow ( as I did with the surf, thats why I went diesel, I towed 5k lbs no problem, looking domestically, I was told I needed either a newish midsize ( 30k$+ too much) or a V8 ( I drive too much to be affordable)) or, like me, I like to explore the back country, diesels win for low end torque, just put it into 4lo, and she can creep along

[mapleridge818]

Diesels are generally made for towing or hauling. The torque is what you need to get the weight around, but with the delica, the engine is just too small. The L300 hardly has the power to move itself, and I don't think I'd tow much more than a small utility trailer with the L400.
I know the diesel dodge rams, f350s etc claim amazing pay load capabilities, but the engine size is usually the same size or larger with the diesel model. The ram diesel is a 6.7 litre! I think the Gm and fords are around a 6L V8. Most of the gas v8s are 5.5 or 6L. The Delica on the other hand goes with a smaller engine for diesel. 2.5 in the l3 and 2.8 in the l4. My gas is a 3L. Going up a hill, in a straight line drag race, and top speed, my gas out performs my friends diesel.

[psilosin]

Gas is what you get after a Mexican meal. People that put that in their car are wimps! You are not a man unless your vehicle needs a 10lb $40 oil filter. No more needs to be said.

[Manitoba deli]

I'm probably what most would call a diesel freak. I prefer the smell, I know with the exhaust, I will be coughing and hacking long before it silently kills me the way gasoline exhaust fumes would. The l300's get way better mileage, but don't have as much power. My l400 pulls awesomely for only being a 2.8L. I regularly pull 5-6000lbs, and while we don't have the hills here, we have winds that will knock the sh*t out of your speed or mileage no matter what you drive. My l400 also burns 90% used veg oil/grease, I think it is way friendlier on the environment than any comparable gasser. I imported my Delica's to have deisel and 4x4, they also happen to be cool. If 4x4 van is all your after, I'd recommend getting an Astro van or Aerostar if initial cost is one of your considerations. Much cheaper to buy and throw away when you are done than a gas Delica. And yes, diesels are not for everyone. They are meant for people who's drive is long enough that they can justify driving rather than using public transit to save the environment. My 5cents worth.
Jason

[josh]

Gas delica's all the way. I got the same fuel mileage with my Petrol as with my Diesel, except that with the Petrol I consistently averaged 10-20km/hr faster (driving the 2500km round trip between Van and Smithers regularly) It has more hp which is apparent when on the highway. Sure, it has less torque, but in Low 4wd it has more than enough power for what is to be expected from it. I have owned 4 delica so far in both diesel and petrol versions. I would have to say that although I have always been a diesel guy, for this application, the petrol version is superior.

Of course I am only referring to L300 gassers and diesels. I have zero knowledge or opinion on the L400.

Josh

[josh]

Waiting for glow plugs: advantage gas
Waiting for warm up: advantage gas
Waiting for cool down: advantage gas
Smell: advantage gas
Smoothness/vibrations: advantage gas
Sound: advantage gas
Fuel cost: advantage gas
Fuel mileage: Push*
Initial cost to buy: advantage gas
Speed/power: advantage gas
Environmental impact: advantage gas
Maintenance costs: Push*
r

I'd tweak the list a bit:

Environmental impact: I would lean towards the versatility of diesel. (WVO, biofuels)
Smell: both suck. (unless WVO)
Maintenance: easily cheaper with the Petrol. An engine costs less than a turbo on the Diesel (which go often) The diesel engine costs at least 3 times as much to buy. Fuel pumps on the diesel are prone to leaks unless you add additives, while there is no such problem with the petrol version.

Josh

[konadog]

I love my diesel L-300. I love waiting for the glow plugs and the slooooow starts off the line and the care and patience required for hill climbs. I love plugging it in when it's cold out and love fussing with adding fuel additive to each tank. Not that I wouldn't own a gasser, but I much prefer the diesel and all that goes along with that. Heaps more character...

[josh]

...but I much prefer the diesel and all that goes along with that. Heaps more character...

Perceived character. I would say any gasser delica has as much personality as any diesel delica. Cant we stop all this prejudice?
Delica = love.

(Just sassing you konadog)

Josh

[tonydca]

Nice to see a thread that touches a nerve!

If gasoline engines were superior in every way, all the time, Mitsubishi wouldn't have bothered making them. They are each better under different circumstances.

Gasoline engines have a lot of advantages to be sure; some of which you touched on. However:

- Diesel engines make more torque at lower rpms. If you are towing or schlepping heavy stuff around, or driving off road at slow speeds, diesels are your friend. There is a reason why big trucks tend to be diesels. If more power for higher speed is what you need, gas is the way to go. True my L400 diesel will max out at 145 kph; the last time I needed to go 180 kph I was definitely out of luck. Oh wait....

- Diesel engines tend to be simpler mechanically, and more tolerant of poor tuning than gas engines. For example, if a glow plug(s) fail, you have a hard time starting. With bad spark plugs, you have a hard time running.

- For their size, the diesel is working harder and more efficiently loping around town than the larger V6 gasser. As a result, I get pretty good mileage with my diesel compared (from what I've heard) to the V6 gasser. And with fuel pushing $1.50/L, a $3K price difference will get eaten up pretty quick at the pump. By my calcs I'm dumping over $3K/yr with pretty moderate driving into the tank, so a couple of years later on the V6 and you're pretty much even.

If you want to buy a van just for tooling around town without towing or real offroading, the smaller gas engine Delica would definitely be a consideration. But there are plenty of gas-powered vehicles sold here in N. America; why bother with the hassle of an import? If you want to be proud of buying a cheap gas-powered van, go drop $1200 on a used GMC Safari with AWD.

If you want something a bit more unique, that'll let you perform well off-roading, or towing a bigger trailer, and are prepared to take the pros with the cons, go diesel.

PS: Tell your diesel friend to up his idle speed to around 850 rpm. Smooths out nicely...

[CREGAN]

With my 2 cents (rounded up to 5 since we no longer have pennies), I think you make a lot of very valid points. Waiting to warm up is a pain in the ass, especially when it is really cold and you have to sit in it and hold the throttle down. They are smokey and noisey, but the diesel trucks around here in Alberta are the ones that really suck. D-bags chip out their trucks and add 15 inch exhausts so it is like a James Bond smoke screen when they roar away. Delica's are not too bad. Mine smokes a little when it is warmer, but I would compare it to a lady fart of black smoke. The part I am hating the most is that Diesel is so f-ing expensive when it is basically a by-product of refining gas. Here in Leduc I pay about 10 cents more per litre. It rips my arse that it costs so much more.

This is my first diesel and I have almost had it 3 years. I have never had a gasser that is as fussy as this. I like it, but I think they both have their definate strong points. The only downside to a gas Delica is that you don't have that cool intercooler intake in your hood. I would consider a gasser in the future... but the bigger engine gasser. Bigger is better right? Oh wait, this is Alberta so it MUST be the biggest.

Craig

[konadog]

...but I much prefer the diesel and all that goes along with that. Heaps more character...

Perceived character. I would say any gasser delica has as much personality as any diesel delica. Cant we stop all this prejudice?
Delica = love.

(Just sassing you konadog)

Josh

I hear yah Josh. That really is the bottom line. I love the diesel but would for sure have a gasser and love it - as long as it was an L-300...

[CREGAN]

...but I much prefer the diesel and all that goes along with that. Heaps more character...

Perceived character. I would say any gasser delica has as much personality as any diesel delica. Cant we stop all this prejudice?
Delica = love.

(Just sassing you konadog)

Josh

I hear yah Josh. That really is the bottom line. I love the diesel but would for sure have a gasser and love it - as long as it was an L-300...

From Gas vs. Diesel to L300 vs. L400 in one swoop. All you L300 guys sure do bring it up alot. Some may say that is a sign of insecurity. Not me though, I just think it is jealousy. (oh yeah, double shock and awe!)

Craig

[mapleridge818]

I know people are suggesting that I just buy a Astro van or Windstar etc. I would have, except for 2 reasons. 1:I have owned many domestics, and will try to avoid them in the future. The build quality just isn't there. 2:I bought the Delica strictly because of it's roof height. I ride motocross, and a dirtbike will fit in a delica, tall roof, just barley. An Astro etc does not have the height. I'd need a full size van, which has a huge v6 or v8.
I didn't mention the WVO thing for a couple of reasons. Most people don't do it to their van. If everyone did do it, we would all need to eat more french fries to keep the WVO flowing. And also, you can put a diesel on WVO, but you can run a gas on propane, and that's just getting into something else all together.
I find it surprising a diesel l400 can pull a 5-6000lbd trailer. My friends just doesn't seem like it would have the power. It is much better than his l300 was at going up hills, but still falls behind my v6.

I will agree that the diesel has more character, and depending on your lifestyle, it's "quirkiness" might suit you. A diesel is on it's own time, with no rush to go anywhere. I usually don't have time to spend waiting for stuff to happen. And again, the rattle and the vibration and the smell almost drew me to a diesel in the first place. Something industrial and simple about it. Maybe as a weekend car, it would be ok, but the gas is so smooth and quiet and refined. After a hard day, of busting my ass, it's nice to have silence and comfort. Kind of a sanctuary to relax in.

[Manitoba deli]

blackberry 050.jpg (60.83 KiB) Viewed 8338 times

This trailer scaled out at 5800lbs

blackberry 054.jpg (56.81 KiB) Viewed 8338 times

My hoovercraft, once everything was loaded inside scaled out at 4600lbs

blackberry 052.jpg (65.1 KiB) Viewed 8338 times

Another shot of the trailers before I left with them (just cause I like looking at my hoovercraft)
I pulled both these trailers from Thompson MB to my place near Dauphin MB. 760km one way. I made a total of 4 round trips in 6 days,3040km's loaded, and 3040kms empty, and used 1/8th of a tank of diesel. Try that on gas or propane. It was also done in the end of June 2011 and the temp was over 30C. No pyro, no cracked head. I've also towed l300's from Calgary, Saskatoon, and Foam lake to my place. The l400 diesel can easily hold its own when towing.

Jason