Is this the Accepted Amount of Smoke when Starting? (video)

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javabob
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Is this the Accepted Amount of Smoke when Starting? (video)

Postby javabob » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:51 pm

Hey guys,

Starting the Deli up seems a little too smokey to me. There is heavy smoke at the start and then intermittent puffs until the engine is warm.

As mine is the only one I've ever seen start up, or even running for that matter, I was wondering if this is normal?

She runs runs great once warm and has never given me cause for concern.

So, what do you guys think?

https://youtu.be/34-Lf0zGb6c
Last edited by javabob on Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Is this the Accepted Amount of Smoke when Starting? (video)

Postby Growlerbearnz » Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:01 pm

Um. No. Maybe if it's below freezing outside, but not in summer. Since it starts right up*, I believe you may have a failed glowplug or two.

Pull them out, and if none are obviously damaged, briefly (5 seconds) apply 12V to each one and see if it glows. There's a video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXqz9XDDPiU of the test, though he has slow glowplugs where our engines have super-quick ones.

If your glow controller was malfunctioning, I would expect it to crank for longer before starting. But just to check, you have the usual two clicks, about 5 seconds apart, and you're starting after the second click, with your foot on the gas a bit? That's what it looks and sounds like.


(For some reason your embedded video wouldn't play for me, I had to watch it on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/embed/34-Lf0zGb6c)
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Is this the Accepted Amount of Smoke when Starting? (video)

Postby javabob » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:10 pm

I was thinking that was too much smoke. Also, you are right, it would smoke like that when it was -23c. Yesterday was about 23c.

I actually have a bypass button that I push to warm the glow plugs. I push the button, it clicks, and I hold it in for 5 seconds. When I release the button I get the second click. I don't touch the gas until I let off the starter, it would stall otherwise.

I'll pull the plugs tomorrow and have a look.

Thank you for posting the link to the test and also to my failed attempt at embedding!
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Is this the Accepted Amount of Smoke when Starting? (video)

Postby Growlerbearnz » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:42 pm

Hmm. Is the bypass activating the super-quick relay (the rightmost of the two round relays, thin wire connected by a spade terminal, labelled "2" in the picture), or the slow relay (the leftmost one, thin wire connected to a small screw eye, "1" in picture)?

CRW_1754.jpg
CRW_1754.jpg (45.45 KiB) Viewed 1594 times


If you hold on the quick one for too long, you'll burn out the glow plugs. They're 6V plugs, and the right relay feeds them 12V to heat them up quickly, but only for a short while. The left relay feeds them 6V (through the resistor pack labelled "?") to help the engine run smoothly while it warms up. If your bypass switch activates the slow relay, it'll take quite a while to heat up the glowplugs.
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Is this the Accepted Amount of Smoke when Starting? (video)

Postby javabob » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:21 pm

I checked the glow plugs and they looked fine and tested good as well. Just for the hell of it I stuffed some new ones in and it may have improved the smoking a tiny bit. Here is a picture of the glow plugs I took out.
1.jpg
1.jpg (236.94 KiB) Viewed 1512 times
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Is this the Accepted Amount of Smoke when Starting? (video)

Postby Growlerbearnz » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:27 pm

Those look like the factory ceramic plugs, possibly the 25 year old original ones. As long as they all glowed about the same then they're probably good, but if one was getting tired it would explain some of the smoke.

So it's still a bit rough on starting. Possibly a clogged injector, possibly low compression on one cylinder.

The clogged injectors are cheap to fix. Try some injector cleaner through the fuel system. It's unlikely to cure it entirely, but if there's improvement then you're on the right track, and fitting rebuilt injectors will probably do the trick.

Low compression is more expensive to fix, requiring an engine rebuild. If it is low compression, the best workaround would be to fit new injectors and glow plugs, and advance your injection timing a bit.
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Is this the Accepted Amount of Smoke when Starting? (video)

Postby javabob » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:56 pm

Thank you so much Growler for giving me a path to pursue!

I'll throw some injector cleaner down it's gullet and see what happens.

Now, if it were low compression, would there be any other symptoms?
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Is this the Accepted Amount of Smoke when Starting? (video)

Postby Growlerbearnz » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:24 pm

javabob wrote:Now, if it were low compression, would there be any other symptoms?


The engine would probably leak more oil than usual (more gas making it past the rings, pressurising the crank case, forcing oil out of everywhere), but the problem there is the "...than usual" bit.

Difficulty starting in cold weather (again, though, how difficult should it be, and how much is due to other factors?)

The real way to know is a compression test, but for that you need a diesel compression tester.

Maybe check your valve clearances next time you're in the engine bay, that would be a nice cheap fix.
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Is this the Accepted Amount of Smoke when Starting? (video)

Postby sealica » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:10 pm

Growlerbearnz wrote:Hmm. Is the bypass activating the super-quick relay (the rightmost of the two round relays, thin wire connected by a spade terminal, labelled "2" in the picture), or the slow relay (the leftmost one, thin wire connected to a small screw eye, "1" in picture)?

CRW_1754.jpg

If you hold on the quick one for too long, you'll burn out the glow plugs. They're 6V plugs, and the right relay feeds them 12V to heat them up quickly, but only for a short while. The left relay feeds them 6V (through the resistor pack labelled "?") to help the engine run smoothly while it warms up. If your bypass switch activates the slow relay, it'll take quite a while to heat up the glowplugs.


I wanted to look at the glow plug relays, but can't fathom exactly where to look with the panel behind drivers seat removed?? I guess I assumed when looking at manual that where it is?

Where does one find the glow plug relay?

Also checked my air filter and it doesn't seem too long since I replaced, but it's FILLED with fine heavy sand!

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Is this the Accepted Amount of Smoke when Starting? (video)

Postby sealica » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:13 pm

sealica wrote:
Growlerbearnz wrote:Hmm. Is the bypass activating the super-quick relay (the rightmost of the two round relays, thin wire connected by a spade terminal, labelled "2" in the picture), or the slow relay (the leftmost one, thin wire connected to a small screw eye, "1" in picture)?

CRW_1754.jpg

If you hold on the quick one for too long, you'll burn out the glow plugs. They're 6V plugs, and the right relay feeds them 12V to heat them up quickly, but only for a short while. The left relay feeds them 6V (through the resistor pack labelled "?") to help the engine run smoothly while it warms up. If your bypass switch activates the slow relay, it'll take quite a while to heat up the glowplugs.


I wanted to look at the glow plug relays, but can't fathom exactly where to look with the panel behind drivers seat removed?? I guess I assumed when looking at manual that where it is?

Where does one find the glow plug relay?

Also checked my air filter and it doesn't seem too long since I replaced, but it's FILLED with fine heavy sand!


I guess it's behind this air pipe right above the air filter housing :p

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Is this the Accepted Amount of Smoke when Starting? (video)

Postby Growlerbearnz » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:48 pm

Yup, you have to remove the upper intake pipe to see the relays (as in the photo a few posts back). It's retained by one 10mm bolt into the B-pillar.
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Is this the Accepted Amount of Smoke when Starting? (video)

Postby louistully » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:25 pm

Javabob, curious if you've resolved your issue.

Also, I too have a bypass button on my steering column. I bought the van in Idaho a few weeks ago (cold, cold, cold) and was able to start it. The guy I bought if from instructed me to hold it down for 10 sec or so before starting the engine. I can't remember if I heard clicks or not, but I was able to start it (albeit somewhat roughly) and drove it over here to Seattle. I don't currently hear a click when I push the button and it's having trouble starting right now even at 45 degrees F, behaving similarly to what I see in your video. I checked the relays and I see a yellow wire patched into the furthermost left relay (number 1 in Growlerbearnz' photo which should make it the 6v relay). I follow the wire and it dead ends into the dashboard up front, just hanging there, not connected to anything.

Which relay do you have bypassed, and what does the wire attach to?
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Is this the Accepted Amount of Smoke when Starting? (video)

Postby sk66 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:31 am

The dangling wire comes off of your glow plug bypass switch, which is why it's not working now. With it attached to the 6v relay you might need to hold it for 20-30 seconds in cold temps. If you move it over to the 12v relay you shouldn't hold it for more than ~6 seconds, but in cold weather you may need to cycle it every few seconds during the startwarm up.
Steven
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Is this the Accepted Amount of Smoke when Starting? (video)

Postby sk66 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:33 am

javabob wrote:Hey guys,

Starting the Deli up seems a little too smokey to me. There is heavy smoke at the start and then intermittent puffs until the engine is warm.

As mine is the only one I've ever seen start up, or even running for that matter, I was wondering if this is normal?

She runs runs great once warm and has never given me cause for concern.

So, what do you guys think?

https://youtu.be/34-Lf0zGb6c

I think the intermittent puffs are probably indicative of fuel build up in one cylinder due to bad injector spray pattern.
Steven
1991 L300
Harrisburg, PA

sk66
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Is this the Accepted Amount of Smoke when Starting? (video)

Postby sk66 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:53 am

FWIW, my starts were like that when I first got my van. I ran a few tanks with diesel kleen additive which helped a bit, and I still use the winter additive here as it gets well below freezing. But this winter I added hot shots stiction eliminator to the oil and it has helped a lot... I don't really understand how/why it helps injectors (it shouldn't help our mechanical injectors?), but on a warm day I get about zero smoke at startup and a smooth idle. Once it's run I don't even wait for the glow plugs for subsequent starts. Below freezing it's still a little smokey and harder to start, but not bad and a lot better than before.

Here's a video I found and my results were similar. https://youtu.be/gJ3DMS1oAH4
Steven
1991 L300
Harrisburg, PA


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