Suddenly won't start

Does your Mitsubishi L300 make a strange noise? Need wheel alignment specs?
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Growlerbearnz
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Suddenly won't start

Postby Growlerbearnz » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:32 pm

Good video! The amount of fuel coming out of that injector pipe looks correct to me. I take it there's far more fuel coming out now than there was the first time you tried? That's the stop solenoid working properly.

So after bleeding the injectors (and re-tightening the nuts) it cranks, coughs, spits a bit of white smoke out the exhaust, but refuses to run? Even if you crank for 10 seconds? It sounds like you still have air in there somewhere. The white smoke is fuel that's been injected but not burnt, or is burning at the wrong time, which is a good sign- there's *some* fuel being injected somewhere!

First, try pumping the primer on top of the fuel filter (big black plastic button, kind of springy, moves about 10mm downwards for each press). Pump it until it becomes firmer, and then crank the engine while continuing to pump. (It's possible the injection pump has an internal airlock- pumping the primer should clear it).

If that doesn't help it's possible your injector lines might still have air in them. When bleeding each injector, you might need to crank for 5-10 seconds to get all the air out of the line. Start with one injector, bleed it for 10 seconds and retighten it, then move to the next.

It sounds like you're getting close!
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pluckmyeyeout
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Suddenly won't start

Postby pluckmyeyeout » Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:22 pm

Yes, white smoke was very exciting! However, still not starting. Tried bleeding/priming alternatively & bleeding while priming several times on all 4 injectors, one at a time, with extensive cranking as suggested. Though I didn't have an assistant pumping primer while I cranked, I was able to do it a bit.

One question: once primed, should the primer be stiff AFTER turning over the engine? B/C it gets loose again every time I turn it over. Is there some sort of vacuum system that keeps fuel in the lines that I should be checking?

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Suddenly won't start

Postby Growlerbearnz » Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:06 pm

The priming pump will become soft again after cranking. Using the primer pump pressurises the injection pump and lines, but when you crank the engine the injectors relieve the pressure. The idea is that the pressure in the injection pump should be enough to run the engine for a short burst, even if the injection pump isn't sucking in new fuel.

Right. Everything seems correct, but it's not starting. There's something we're missing. Back to basics. Let me know if forgot anything:

---------------------------
-Filled with fuel.
-drove short distance, stopped engine for 20 minutes.
-engine cranks but won't start, doesn't even cough or try to start.

Diagnosis:
-Checked timing belt in place and tight. (Did you check that the timing was still correct? I don't recall.http://www.delica.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=17654)
-No click from solenoid.
-Replaced solenoid, found solenoid tip jammed.
-Still cranks fine. Coughs, spits out white smoke, won't start or run.
-Bled injectors, primed pump. No change.

------------------------------

Are you absolutely certain that you filled up with diesel, and not petrol? If you'd put petrol in, you would have been able to drive a short distance on the diesel in the fuel filter, the petrol would cause the rubber cutoff plunger to swell and jam, and it would explain the lack of starting now.

You should be able to smell the difference- but it might be on the receipt from when you filled up? You might need to find a sample of gasoline and a sample of diesel to familiarise yourself with the two different smells.
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Suddenly won't start

Postby pluckmyeyeout » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:29 pm

You've got the gist of it. I also was reading through the repair manual and consulting with a friend/mechanic (not a diesel specialist), we came across 13-77 which recommended using the air bleed on the filter. See videos below.


https://youtu.be/HwjhYpAEiOY
https://youtu.be/Oq7eQxo2x-w

Which didn't do anything... So that confirms there's fuel at the filter, correct? And injectors squirting indicates fuel at the injectors, right?

I peeked at the timing belt before but didn't take the whole cover off. Just peeking it looked OK, but I suppose a thorough inspection is in order... Am I correct to say that the radiator and fan need to be removed?

I was so scared to go look at the gas receipt... That would have been such a bonehead move. But I finally did and it was diesel. Plus smell test and everything else confirms. It's diesel.

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Suddenly won't start

Postby Growlerbearnz » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:25 pm

All your bleeding procedures look fine to me.

You should be able to check your timing without removing anything more than the top half of the timing belt cover, and you don't need to remove the fan or radiator.

mitsubishi-l200-2.5td-k74-4d56-1996-2006-engine-cambelt-cover-upper-9513-p.jpg
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Remove the five 10mm bolts and the cover comes free. Two of the bolts are longer than the others (but different lengths) so keep track of which long bolt goes in which hole. You *might* need to remove the drivers' side engine cover to get at the bolt on the far side of the cam sprocket- I can do it with the cover in place, but I know where the bolt is and have done it a couple of times.

If the timing is correct (check the link in my previous post to see how the timing marks should line up) then I'd remove the rocker cover and check for broken rockers, and that the camshaft rotates when the rest of the engine does. Turning the engine by hand, of course. Cranking the starter will spit oil everywhere :-)

At this stage though I'm a little bit stumped. It seems odd that a case of jammed cutoff solenoid* would coincide with timing failure, but when things aren't working as expected there's nothing to do but go back and check the basics.

Fuel (yes)
Air (unconfirmed but, presumably)
Compression (it's cranking at normal speed, not spinning madly. Though- Heat? We haven't confirmed the glow plugs are functioning.)
Timing (Unconfirmed yet)

I can imagine your frustration!


*No fuel at injectors, no attempting to start, no click from solenoid, plunger actually jammed in the hole- textbook symptoms.
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Suddenly won't start

Postby Growlerbearnz » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:38 pm

One last thing to try before you pull the engine apart- try the jumper on the glow plug bus bar thing from a couple of posts ago. Give them 5 seconds, disconnect the jump lead, and then crank immediately- being careful not to let the jump lead short out on anything metal!

If that doesn't do anything, It might be worth removing each glow plug to confirm that each one works. Again, easier than removing the timing cover. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Po_1pNHE1Y

The white smoke *really* sounds like failed glow plugs. Again, though, suspiciously coincidental.
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Suddenly won't start

Postby pluckmyeyeout » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:06 am

I'll check plugs today! Before jumping the plug bar - Would I go from my own batt? And only the positive? Would I run the negative to the body of the vehicle somewhere?

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Suddenly won't start

Postby pluckmyeyeout » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:52 am

WELP... The Deli started!!!

I jumped the plug bar and it started right up! Just long enough for me to do a little jig, then promptly died. Tried again. Started up and promptly died. Decided before going further that I would remove plugs and test. None of them are getting the ohms reading that they should be, and they look like garbage, so it sounds like new plugs are in order.

But what does jumping the bar tell us exactly?

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Suddenly won't start

Postby pluckmyeyeout » Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:13 pm

Pictures for reference.

Good news is the local dealer's got OEM avail from an East Coast (close to me) warehouse at about $30/ea. Part number is MD092392 as far as I can tell.
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Suddenly won't start

Postby Growlerbearnz » Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:36 pm

OMG you have no idea how relieved I am right now. Actually, on second thoughts, you probably do ;-). I was officially out of ideas!

pluckmyeyeout wrote:Before jumping the plug bar - Would I go from my own batt? And only the positive? Would I run the negative to the body of the vehicle somewhere?


Sounds like you figured it out but for others reading this: yes, just the positive side, from your own battery directly to the bus bar.

pluckmyeyeout wrote:I jumped the plug bar and it started right up! Just long enough for me to do a little jig, then promptly died.


If you increase the revs it should (might?) keep running- but investigating the glow plugs is definitely a good idea. For future reference: If there was an air leak in the fuel supply to the pump it would start and then stall out, but I would ignore that idea for now and fix the glow plugs.

pluckmyeyeout wrote:But what does jumping the bar tell us exactly?


Jumping the bus bar applies power directly to the glow plugs, bypassing the ECU and glow relays. So what we can say is that, for some reason, your glow plugs were not getting sufficient power when controlled by the ECU.

There's a few reasons why this might be:

-The ECU measures the glow plugs' resistance to estimate how hot they are. Your old glow plugs might be fooling the ECU into thinking they're hot enough when they're actually not. Replacing the glow plugs is a good idea, but to avoid introducing new faults please make sure you're installing genuine Mitsubishi ones that match your old ones. It sounds like that's what you're doing (your part number is correct), but $30 is a suspiciously good price- they're usually US$40-60.

-The wiring between the glow plugs and the relays might be corroded or failing. Clean up the connections on that fusible link that was getting hot, and clean up the bus bar and any other connections you can find.

-The glow relay(s) might be failing, making a poor connection internally or with burnt-out coils.

-the ECU might be just not working properly- it's common for the circuit board traces to corrode due to overheating or a leaky capacitor.

There's an awesome thread here: http://www.delica.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=15336 , though re-winding your own relay coil is a bit hardcore. I'd just buy a new one if it comes to that.
Nothing says "poor workmanship" more than wrinkles in the duct tape.

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Suddenly won't start

Postby pluckmyeyeout » Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:39 pm

Huzzah!

So I'll start with new genuine Mitsubishi plugs (whatever they cost... I ended up calling a dealer in California, as it's Saturday and all the local Mitsubishi parts departments close at noon on Saturdays. I was calling around 3pm EST. He confirmed they're available and gave the Mitsubishi MSRP at $30, so we'll see what the local dealer wants for them. If they're actually $30, maybe I should order a bunch and get a group buy?)

Then I shall systematically inspect the glow plug ECU/relay and go from there.

Wa -hoooo

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Suddenly won't start

Postby pluckmyeyeout » Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:12 pm

Ordered plugs - $31USD from the local dealer, they'll be here in a day or two.

In the meantime, started to take a look at relay and ECU after a quick visual inspection of the wires/connectors (looks OK). I'll do a more thorough connection inspection with the multimeter once I get the plugs back in and everything reassembled.

Relay #1: https://youtu.be/cH2OJgLHQSA

Main questions:

1) Am I using my multimeter correctly?
2) Am I measuring from the right place?
3) What does the 2.9 reading mean on the 200 ohms setting?

Video #2, inside the relay: https://youtu.be/_xR07m0HTK8

Video #3, 2nd relay, inside: https://youtu.be/ygeNmfq5RS0

My main question here is does everything look right?

And finally, the ECU: https://youtu.be/KgcU_lOeh0w

(sorry about the crotch shot XD)

Did my best with one hand. Next time I'll get a tripod. :)

Whatdayathink?

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Suddenly won't start

Postby Growlerbearnz » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:39 pm

You're using your multimeter correctly. The range sets the maximum resistance you expect to measure- so the 200 range measures from 0-200 ohms. For best accuracy, you set the range to the lowest setting you need- so in this case the 200 ohm range is right. 2.9 ohms sounds about right for a coil, and the coils look clean and unburnt.

Usually I'd measure from the spade terminal to the body of the relay, but I think the points you measured work out the same.

The ECU looks super clean. I'd bet the issues are all down to the old glow plugs being the wrong resistance.
Nothing says "poor workmanship" more than wrinkles in the duct tape.

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Lapprentis
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Suddenly won't start

Postby Lapprentis » Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:07 am

Have the ECU rebuilt: the capacitors have a life expectancy too, they may leak overtime: it costed me a few dollars having it restore by an electronic guy. There is a post related to that. :shock:

Now, it seems a lot of people were following your thread like an horror movie as for wanting to know the end of the story and in the hope it will never happend to their own Van :? Hope it is "only" the Glow plugs...And hope you will find back your smile of yours like on your ID icon :-)

Lapprentis :M

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Suddenly won't start

Postby Morgonzo » Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:59 pm

I'm certainly watching how you issue plays out. I think Growlerbearnz is right about it being your GP's. I'm sending good mechanical vibes your way all the same :-) . I know how much fresh GP's can change how your engine runs.
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