Pajero timing issue, dies every time

[Artie Fufkin]

Thanks for response Growlerbearnz.

Last night I enquired as to EXACTLY what was done to rebuild this pump. Every question was ignored.

This is the response I got:

"Pls turn the fuel adjustment screw 180 degrees clockwise, and see what happens." "Even turn more if necessary."

I enquired if set to factory settings and my concern about such a huge adjustment !!

response:
"According to the symptoms, we believe you can go 180 degrees at once to save time. If symptoms got better somewhat, turn 1/8 one at a time to fine tune."

So ..... given the lack of direct answers to rebuild I'd say no, not set to factory settings.

The pump doesn't look all that cleaned up. Many of the screws do not even look cracked to have gotten inside it. There is no yellow marking on the fuel flow screw that I can see.

The dying at high rev's and not rev'ing until warm concerns me.

By "MAX FUEL SCREW" are you referring to the throttle lever screw? or the fuel flow screw ? I think you mean throttle lever screw. That looks about where it should be.

[Artie Fufkin]

Ok, throttle lever appears to be two splines off from factory setting but not sure about proper setting so holding off on changing it.

Trying to find a picture to double check the setting marks.

We tried adjusting fuel flow screw (as per rebuilders instructions). The vehicle at least ideas now.

It’s so far out of whack there is no way the throttle lever and fuel flow screw were set to factory spec.

The pump will only go to about 2200 rpm for a few seconds, then levels off at about 1800. While at 1800 it fluctuates up and down, not extreme but it clearly fluctuates. . When throttle is released it goes below idle setting for.... maybe 6-7 seconds (?) then will eventually settle at idle.

Sure seems like governor is sticking. This will not get anywhere near full rpm.

I repeatedly asked shop that did rebuild to list exactly what they did and this is the response:

Pls consult with your local diesel mechanic shop for proper installation.
If you are not confident with our provided IP, pls return it. (at my expense I'm sure..)

They are not answering any questions regarding rebuild what so ever.

Starting to get more than a little frustrated with them.

[Growlerbearnz]

By "MAX FUEL SCREW" are you referring to the throttle lever screw? or the fuel flow screw ? I think you mean throttle lever screw. That looks about where it should be.

Max fuel screw is also called Power adjustment, full-load adjustment, fuel adjustment. This one here, on the back of the IP:

MaxFuel.JPG (216.07 KiB) Viewed 11535 times

It sets the absolute maximum amount of fuel that can be injected (even if the governor is jammed, and the accelerator is on the floor), but it effects the fuel curve over the whole range. If it's set stupidly low, it will limit the maximum speed your engine will run at- engine speed on a diesel is entirely controlled by the amount of fuel injected.

Running better when warm also supports the idea that it's not injecting enough fuel- weak mixtures are difficult to ignite, but once the engine's hot they'll burn much better. I'd try turning the fuel screw 2 full turns clockwise (in) and see what happens. I wouldn't worry too much about winding the screw too far in, just adjust it by one or two turns at a time. If you've gone too far you'll find it impossible to get the idle down to 700rpm.

It *could* be a sticky governor, but I'd expect a sticky governor to cause over-revving as often as under-revving. Also, to stick in the "fuel cutoff" position, you'd have to have revved the engine over 4000rpm, which I don't think you've achieved yet.

My injection pump doesn't have any markings on the throttle lever or splines, so I had to make my own before dismantling. (Bosch pumps have fancy markings from the factory for ease of rebuilding.) If someone has added markings to yours, then it's a good bet it's been rebuilt before and the markings are probably correct.

[Artie Fufkin]

Once again, thanks for the response Growlerbearnz.

Well, seem to have gotten to the bottom of of it. Unfortunately the pump has to come back out as well as more money going out for something I've already paid for.

The company that "rebuilt" it, charged for a complete rebuild and have invoice stating same. Admitted they "changed some seals and thats what the industry calls a COMPLETE rebuild". They admitted to "not having the proper tools and equipment to test anything on a pump", not even a leak test !

I consulted with two very reputable professional diesel pump shops today (both I've dealt with before and know they are excellent) and both stated the governor is sticking (they were more detailed as to what part exactly) and a specific part is clogged with dirt.

There is absolutely no doubt the pump was not set to factory settings and upon closer inspection is HIGHLY unlikely several of the seals were actually changed.

I consulted the shop whom I purchased it from and did the "rebuild" (they are on other side of country) and basically got the run around. The usual it's all my fault, trying to pull a fast one and there's something wrong with my engine. We did nothing to this pump short of properly install it, and adjust the max fuel screw 180 degrees as per their instructions (have e-mail to prove their instructions).

They refused all observations of governor sticking (I have video). They claim it ran properly in vehicle it was removed from, possible, but there is no way they could know it ran properly after they took some of it apart and put it back together.

All complete BS. When this is resolved I'll consider posting the details of the shop so hopefully others will avoid having the same mess to deal with.

Now I'm forced to pay for a proper rebuild from a proper shop on top of what I've already paid for what I thought was a proper rebuild. The original rebuilder actually told me this professional pump rebuild shop will not know anything about fixing this type of pump. Complete non-sense. I know this from experience with them.

This is disgusting customer service.

Thanks again for your help Growlerbearnz.

[Growlerbearnz]

You appear to have been comprehensively ripped off. Definitely let us know who to avoid once you have everything sorted out.

Admitted they "changed some seals and thats what the industry calls a COMPLETE rebuild".

The scamming industry, perhaps. Pretty sure the fuel injection industry calls that "a waste of time" or "asking or trouble".

this professional pump rebuild shop will not know anything about fixing this type of pump.

Yeah, that rare and special VE pump, only fitted to VW, Cummins, Caterpillar, Dodge, and practically any diesel engine under 6 litres.

[FalcoColumbarius]

You appear to have been comprehensively ripped off. Definitely let us know who to avoid once you have everything sorted out.

Admitted they "changed some seals and thats what the industry calls a COMPLETE rebuild".

The scamming industry, perhaps. Pretty sure the fuel injection industry calls that "a waste of time" or "asking or trouble".

this professional pump rebuild shop will not know anything about fixing this type of pump.

Yeah, that rare and special VE pump, only fitted to VW, Cummins, Caterpillar, Dodge, and practically any diesel engine under 6 litres.

Artie, I got to agree with GBNZ ~ you appear to be dealing with rip-off merchants. To say "this professional pump rebuild shop will not know anything about fixing this type of pump" is kind of like saying this professional lounge band will not know anything about this group called The Beatles. The "Robert Bosch Type VE Diesel Distributor Injection Pump" is the bench mark in the world of diesel. Small time outfits like Mercedes Benz, not sure if your professional pump rebuild shop will have heard of them, use this pump. It's a classic. You should report this professional pump rebuild shop to the Better Business Bureau for un-professional conduct and demand your money back then take it to a real IP shop. What do these charlatans call themselves? We should get the word out.

...and adjust the max fuel screw 180 degrees as per their instructions (have e-mail to prove their instructions)...

They don't know what they're doing.

Falco.

P.S.: Sorry for butting in like this but my skin was beginning to crawl whilst reading this and I needed to proverbially itch it.

[Artie Fufkin]

FalcoColumbarius & Growlerbearnz,

Yes, you are correct on all points.

Initially the REAL rebuild shop was going to do a REAL full rebuild on my pump. Have notes somewhere but a full rebuild was in the $450-500 range? It was farrrrrr more than just seals, these guys know what they are doing. They had trouble sourcing one part for it however. They were very professional, honest and upfront about every detail. Not to mention helpful when explaining things.

Since they couldn't source the part I decided to look for a new pump. New Mitsu pumps were unexpectedly insanely expensive for these things so the best option was a used one in good condition and have it rebuild. To be fair, I had dealt with the company I purchased the used pump from a few times for some new parts in the past and had no problems with them at all. They had a newly acquired used pump, price seemed reasonable. I inquired as to options, brand new, vs used, vs rebuilding. This shop gave me a rebuild price and it was inline with what the first dedicate pump shop cost so I went for the rebuild with an agreement on a core return. (have the e-mail and invoice to prove everything).
Well, they sure didn't do anything near a full rebuild.

Yesterday after I politely and professionally brought up all my concerns and inquired as to how to resolve this, the person I've been dealing with was quick to get aggressive and start the lies. After he admitted to only changing a few seals and nothing else, nor having any proper tools/equipment for testing... he informed me that a complete rebuild would be $2000 !!! Can you believe that ! I informed him what the pro shop price was and he told me all they would be doing is seals. I knew that was complete BS because of my prior experience with the pro place.

He asked how I wanted to handle it and I asked for them to pay the REAL rebuild cost since I had been sold an pump that was not functioning properly. This is when all the BS came out. There was something wrong with my engine .... I did something to the pump blah, blah blah. Then suddenly he said "just send the pump back for a full refund inc. shipping". He was trying very hard to get me out of his hair immediately.

At this point he was nothing but aggressive and kept repeating "send it back, send it back".

Ok fine, but I have two problems. I don't trust for one second now once the pump is in his hands he won't pull some BS with a FULL refund because right after our second phone call (he hung up on me the first time) he immediately sent an e-mail saying they will DECIDE on refund when upon return. Second issue is I now have no pump at all for my vehicle. He knows I'm between a rock and a hard place and is clearly playing games.

So I'm debating having this used pump rebuilt at my cost, returning the core (assuming he comes clean on the core return cost) and dealing with it afterwards. My vehicle has been down too long and I gotta get it moving again.

What I will say at the moment is the shop in question is in the Vancouver area.

[Growlerbearnz]

You ship the "rebuilt" pump back to them and then what, they send your old pump back? Sounds like a waste of shipping.

You currently have in your possession a rebuildable pump with a $20 seal kit (partially, poorly) installed. I'd propose that you both keep the pumps you have, and the rebuilder refund you, less (say) $50 to cover the cost of the seal kit and their time.

(Seal kit- google "Bosch VE rebuild kit": http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Diesel-Injec ... IA&vxp=mtr More comprehensive kits also come with the front seal and rollers, but it doesn't sound like they took that pump apart enough to fit those parts. If they'd dismantled the pump even far enough to get to the governor they'd surely have cleaned it up).

[Artie Fufkin]

Little bit of an update on this obviously bogus fuel pump experience ..

The pump turned out to be in far worse shape than we initially thought and light years away from what I was told by seller from beginning until now. One hell of a rip of scheme going on in this particular situation. Not a chance in hell this came out of a recently properly running Pajero (which is exactly what I was told..... not to mention the paid for "complete" rebuild). The evidence is overwhelming . I've compiled the necessary video and photo graphic evidence as well as professional consultation from a very reputable pump rebuilding company.

As I stated earlier, the original seller(well known on this site) has offered a full refund and shipping. Just have to confirm they are covering return shipping. This should be sorted to it's conclusion by early next week.

I will give the seller one chance to make this right, put it behind us and go from there.

I'm a reasonable guy and if the seller does the right thing I will put it behind us and most likely will remain their customer since I've had absolutely no issues with them in the past through several orders (all new parts though).

If they do not do the right thing I will post everything here from pictures, video, original invoice, information from the professional shop and of course exactly who the shop is and who I dealt with there.

Hoping for a reasonable conclusion.

[pajerry]

Im sending my pump in for a rebuild but am waiting on your conclusion before I pay an arm and a leg to have mine removed and rebuilt. I was quoted 6 to 800 for the full rebuild at a diesel pump shop in calgary, plus 6 to 8 hours labour to have it removed and reinstalled. Not cheap by any means..

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[Artie Fufkin]

Im sending my pump in for a rebuild but am waiting on your conclusion before I pay an arm and a leg to have mine removed and rebuilt. I was quoted 6 to 800 for the full rebuild at a diesel pump shop in calgary, plus 6 to 8 hours labour to have it removed and reinstalled. Not cheap by any means..

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Pajery,

Think I might have mentioned this earlier ? ... One of the things this seller did to try and convince me their "complete" rebuild cost was legit (total bull, they literally only changed two copper washers !!!) was they sent me a link on this very site to a thread discussing rebuilds with quotes up to $1800 !! Unreal.

The pro shop I consulted with are in Ontario do very good work. The quote out the door including proper cleaning, complete seal kit, full factory reset, leak test and pressure test was about $595 inc tax. Now obviously this does not include any other parts if necessary and it does not include removal-instal in vehicle.

After doing it initially with the bogus pump and removing it a second time I 'd say 6-8 hours for a pro shop sounds a little high. Pro's who do this regularly should have that out in no more than 2 hours ? From experience now, I'd say it should be able to be done in about 5 hours labour by a pro shop with proper facility and tools. Six at the outside. Eight is pushing it imo.

This experience has taught me there is a real scam going on with fuel pumps and pump rebuilds in this Delica-Pajero community. When we buy a used pump in the $700 - 800 range what are we REALLY getting ? A $200 core return !!! The pro pump shop are the guys who made me realize this. (these guys were no BS and honest). Ok, so a bit of a charge to remove it from a parts vehicle, box and ship it out .... that's worth an extra $500- 600 ??

The highest quote I was given for a complete rebuild by the pump seller was $2200 !!!!!!! PLUS the cost of the used pump .... and this was no remove install cost !!

A real scam going on here. Even with the over inflated used pump cost at $7-800, the PROPER full rebuild quoted to me at $595 out the door (assuming no parts other than seal kit) with say 6 hours labour if paying a shop to remove-install for you you (lets say $100 per hr. tops) are looking at $2177. Thats at the outside of the scale.

I was getting quotes as high as about $4100 .....

Something is really wrong here.

... and on top of all this the pump I was sold was garbage. Again, I'll post the evidence and the seller shop details if they don't do the right thing.

[pajerry]

Im sending my pump in for a rebuild but am waiting on your conclusion before I pay an arm and a leg to have mine removed and rebuilt. I was quoted 6 to 800 for the full rebuild at a diesel pump shop in calgary, plus 6 to 8 hours labour to have it removed and reinstalled. Not cheap by any means..

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Pajery,

Think I might have mentioned this earlier ? ... One of the things this seller did to try and convince me their "complete" rebuild cost was legit (total bull, they literally only changed two copper washers !!!) was they sent me a link on this very site to a thread discussing rebuilds with quotes up to $1800 !! Unreal.

The pro shop I consulted with are in Ontario do very good work. The quote out the door including proper cleaning, complete seal kit, full factory reset, leak test and pressure test was about $595 inc tax. Now obviously this does not include any other parts if necessary and it does not include removal-instal in vehicle.

After doing it initially with the bogus pump and removing it a second time I 'd say 6-8 hours for a pro shop sounds a little high. Pro's who do this regularly should have that out in no more than 2 hours ? From experience now, I'd say it should be able to be done in about 5 hours labour by a pro shop with proper facility and tools. Six at the outside. Eight is pushing it imo.

This experience has taught me there is a real scam going on with fuel pumps and pump rebuilds in this Delica-Pajero community. When we buy a used pump in the $700 - 800 range what are we REALLY getting ? A $200 core return !!! The pro pump shop are the guys who made me realize this. (these guys were no BS and honest). Ok, so a bit of a charge to remove it from a parts vehicle, box and ship it out .... that's worth an extra $500- 600 ??

The highest quote I was given for a complete rebuild by the pump seller was $2200 !!!!!!! PLUS the cost of the used pump .... and this was no remove install cost !!

A real scam going on here. Even with the over inflated used pump cost at $7-800, the PROPER full rebuild quoted to me at $595 out the door (assuming no parts other than seal kit) with say 6 hours labour if paying a shop to remove-install for you you (lets say $100 per hr. tops) are looking at $2177. Thats at the outside of the scale.

I was getting quotes as high as about $4100 .....

Something is really wrong here.

... and on top of all this the pump I was sold was garbage. Again, I'll post the evidence and the seller shop details if they don't do the right thing.

Thanks for the info. I emailed you but didnt get a response. Ive been putting this off for almost a year as I only use the truck a few minutes a week lately and reading your posts have really turned me off. The shop that quoted me are reputable here in calgary and are highly recommended. Id rather pay them an hour or two more for that alone. They admitted they havent removed them before which is why they are unsure about total time. Also they were taking rising suns word on total hrs, which is the only part leaving a bad taste. PM me regardless if they are one of the usual BC shops.

Thanks

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[Artie Fufkin]

PM sent pajerry, check your inbox for a heads up.

[Artie Fufkin]

Update on my fuel pump issue...

Seller shop refunded full amount inc. all shipping.

I appreciate them doing the right thing and will move on from the inconvenience of it all. Since seller made things right I have no problem remaining their customer on new parts.

I still have to work out a new fuel pump but I'm glad this matter is properly resolved.

[pajerry]

Well, I've finally had time to get the ball rolling for my pump. I talked to GCL Diesel in Edmonton, they're the most reputable in Alberta and work on these pumps all the time.

A complete rebuild, all new seals, cleaning etc runs at 7hrs @$130 per hour, plus the cost of the rebuild kit, probably around $50. So excluding shipping and removal and re-installation, probably looking at 1100 bucks. They calibrate it and test it as well. A proper servicing.

Regardless, Im going to tackle changing the front shaft seal myself as I have some time off and diesel is starting to leak into the crankcase. The tech I talked to said this is a decent way to go about it to save money, although the other seals may be an issue as well. Fuel in the oil does point to the front seal, so I might as well try it out before spending over a grand on a 23 year old bush beater.

I found this write up on pocuk.com so I can tackle this with confidence. It seems many guys can do it in under 4 hours.

http://www.pocuk.com/forums/viewtopic.p ... sc&start=0

Im not sure if you have time to look over that write up or have anything to add? It looks legit.