please help troubleshoot!

WVO filtering, WVO conversion information, biodiesel fuel issues, etc.

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after oil
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please help troubleshoot!

Post by after oil » Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:42 pm

hi
the delica i converted recently is still having a little trouble. when starting on WVO, even when warm, the RPM rise and lower, or lurch, and there is much white smoke. the lurching goes away when the throttle is pressed.
no problem on diesel.
the van was recently tuned at CCAuto, the problem existed before, and persists
the wvo lines are all 3/8" up to the heat exchanger, and then 5/16" for the 12 inches or so from the HE to the IP
there is a 7-9 psi assist pump between the wvo filter and the HE.
the fuel is drawn from the rear tank and its vented okay.
the whole system is exactly like mine, but i put the wvo pump before the filter in mine.

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Re: please help troubleshoot!

Post by Kuan » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:47 pm

I think pumps are better at pushing than sucking so perhaps the pump placement is the issue if it is the only thing different. How is the filter? Has it been replaced?
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Re: please help troubleshoot!

Post by delicat » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:14 pm

X2
I'd place the pump right after the WVO tank and make sure the return is between the lift pump and the filter (or heat exchanger).

I take it there's no loose hoses or air seeping in the system overnight? Sorry, can't see much else.

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Re: please help troubleshoot!

Post by BCDelica » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:16 am

X3

Can't remember the source, but there's a reason not to provide positive pressure to the injection pump. I vaguely remember a long thread on the Greasecar forum.

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Re: please help troubleshoot!

Post by Adam » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:57 am

x4, sounds to me like a WVO delivery issue. The only thing I can suggest is look for restrictions on your WVO line, check your WVO filter, pull off your WVO line before it hits your fuel selection value and see if the fuel is actually pumping out with your aux fuel pump running.

I can't tell you how many fuel delivery issue I had with my L300. Well I could, but you'd be bored and annoyed after a while. I installed a couple of inline glass filters on my supply and return line to see when the WVO had been purged from the engine. They were also useful for identify fuel delivery issues and air leaks, as the air tended to collect in the filters.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll be able to track down the issue.

BTW, did read somewhere that using a pump before a WVO filter defeats any water blocking ability that the filter might have by emulsifying the water in the oil and allowing it to pass through the filter. Because of this it was suggested that the pump be put after any water blocking filters. I'm not sure if this is a really big issue or not, but that's what I read somewhere on the internets, so it must be true (or truish).
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Re: please help troubleshoot!

Post by after oil » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:26 am

those are all great ideas and i thank you. however i have been over those things 8-) its not a matter of air seeping in overnight, becuase the symptoms will appear every time starting on WVO even after driving for a while
my van has the aux pump before the filter. it was ed beggs, if im not mistaken, that posted here about putting the aux pump after the filter. so i tried that on this conversion (he also said, i think, that he wouldnt even use a aux pump)
slightly off topic: the idea that a pump before the filter defeats the water separating capabilities is moot. here is why: water separating elements are engineered to separate water out of diesel. according to a few sources i have read, the suspended water in WVO cannot be separated by that filter.

the pump pumps just fine, i checked that.

last night i ran a hose from a wvo jerry can straight to the heat exchanger, bypassing the tank, filter, and pump. i swapped the valves from the return to the intake, just to eliminate one more variable. i believe (and worry) that the problem lies after the heat exchanger... which means in the IP or beyond it. why white smoke?

thanks

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Re: please help troubleshoot!

Post by delicat » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:18 am

You're doing all the right moves. Is you oil hot enough going into your IP? Is it possible that your HE is leaking air in the system? I've only seen white smoke at start up when my glow plug weren't working or that I had too much wvo blended in my diesel in cold mornings...
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Re: please help troubleshoot!

Post by after oil » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:58 am

delicat wrote:You're doing all the right moves. Is you oil hot enough going into your IP? Is it possible that your HE is leaking air in the system? I've only seen white smoke at start up when my glow plug weren't working or that I had too much wvo blended in my diesel in cold mornings...
the oil is at least 60C
the white smoke is only on WVO, when the engine is warm
the HE is sealed up good, as far as i can tell. i suppose i could somehow plug all the holes and pressure test it with air...

is it possible that there are problems in the IP or injectors?

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Re: please help troubleshoot!

Post by TardisDeli » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:15 am

Hi Ari, I vote air, too much (due to leaking o ring etc) or too little. Not an expert, but seen a lot of problems at Deli-meets. I am assuming L300.

Since you got the service done at CC Autos, you know Guru Glen did everything OK.

When did it last run OK? Did it run OK before the conversion? Before the servicing? Before the cold weather? Seen lots of problems in last 2 weeks with cooler weather.

First check the oil dipstick, hope no milky residue at bottom, indicating water got into engine.

NUMBER 1 Best BET: Take out the air filter, leave off the cover, then try starting it. Yeah, I know you think the air filter is still 90 percent clean, but it does affect it.

2nd Best bet: The fuel injection pump has a little o ring at the bottom, maybe half inch skinny size, it dies and white smoke and coughing happens. Yup, white (scared me when I saw that one).

Assuming its a pre april 1993 L300, which is oil cooled Turbo. But if it is later 1993 L300 thus it is water cooled turbo, maybe water leak (no idea how to prove that one, it just popped into my head).

Bad batch of fuel, drain the L300 tanks by loosening that bottom bolt.

Wash out the exhaust pipe with the water hose, park slightly uphill and flush it for a while till water runs back out cleanish. Otherwise the soot crap in your exhaust pipe warms up, and softens, and blows out crud from the past times. Yup, really works.

The temp sensor 2 pin plug on the front of the engine head, in front of the oil filler cap. If it cant sense the temp of the coolant then it can't tell the glow plugs to turn on (usually evidenced by morse code clicks, but seen 3 recently that just caused very wierd problems), swap in one from another delica that starts fine.

Bad fuel lines, remember rubber lines, expecially pre 1994 models, disintegrate with alcoholic beverages, so that 10 percent methanol ethanol crap may have made minute crack in ancient fuel lines.

Crud trapped in fuel line, lets some fuel through but crud can't get past the fuel pump narrowing entrance, so it clogs there, then falls back down into the lines. Solution, remove both lines on fuel pump, put a cup there with both lines into, then turn starter key and pump a bit.

Injectors ... hmmm. Good electrical to all? are the little bolts tight? There are little metal washers on the injector, they are very soft, must be replaced if you undo them.

Valve cover gasket etc not leaking? especially the half moon at the rear, run a bead of liquid gasket sealer.

Of course the injector pump has several o rings in, but that usually seems to be black smoke.

Water pump OK?

Lastly, steam clean your engine, just take the hose from your household steam cleaner (yup, true) and spray around the engine compartment etc, Then watch for leaks.

Park slightly uphill so any condensation runs out of exhaust pipe. Yeah, scraping the bottom of my ideas here. But I am always amazed at the simple little problem that affect the whole system.

Cheers, Christine.
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Re: please help troubleshoot!

Post by after oil » Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:51 am

thanks for giving it so much thought christine!
one thing to consider is that this is a "new" van that had all the work done at CCAuto. so water pump, filters, valve cover gasket etc. etc are all brand new.
again, it starts fine on diesel. the conversion was done very soon after the van came back from CCAuto's overhauls.
just got an oil change, nobody reported any milky residue
fuel is good, same fuel me and a few others in powell river use (cuz im the one wit the centrifuge!)
it aint the fuel lines, cuz i ran a brand new line from a jerry can to the HE, same problem. btw: wvo doesnt have alcohol in it

electrical to injectors?
im sure its not a glow plug problem. this happens when the engine is hot as well as cold
TardisDeli wrote:2nd Best bet: The fuel injection pump has a little o ring at the bottom, maybe half inch skinny size, it dies and white smoke and coughing happens. Yup, white (scared me when I saw that one

thats the only idea of your very thoughtful list that may apply. could you be a little more specific please, about this o-ring, or illustrate it?

maybe, maybe, there is something in the fuel line right at the IP...
otherwise its something in the IP or injectors

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Re: please help troubleshoot!

Post by PlantDrive » Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:51 pm

I don't use electric pumps unless I have to. They are generally more trouble than they are worth. They are one more thing to fail, and in cold weather gell up inside, work too hard, burn out, etc. When we do have to use them is where an electric lift pump was used on the system originally.
On the Delica, this is not the case. The vane pump built into the end of the injection pump on the VE-style pump is up to the task.
(It will, after all, pull over 20hg vacuum....normal is around 8 for a good system, warmed oil, filter not plugged. That's cruising at 100 km/h.)

Where we do use electric pumps, we try to only use good ones - gerotors, gear pumps, as wvo lift pumps, and we try to put them out of where they will be chilled by moving air, and if possible provide some means of preheating them....a small pad heater, a coolant line wrapped around the pump on it's way to the hotfox, that sort of thing.

I do not have one on my van. The vacuum gauge reads virtually the same on veg as on diesel up until the filter starts to get plugged.
That setup consists of Hotfox type coolant based tank heater and fuel pickup in custom tank, a VM2 filter, a Vegtherm, and two Hydraforce 3 port valves on a single toggle (no timer, didn't bother). It has been absolutely reliable winter and summer and all over BC for about the last year and a half and maybe 30,000 km or more by now. 3/8" lines. The only improvement I might make if I was doing it again would be to use 1/2" line from tank to VM2 for better fuel flow at full load on oil not yet fully heated at the tank.

If you insist on using the electric pump, it is best to have it located near the tank, with strainer filter between the tank and the pump, and with your return line run all the way back to the pump inlet side of the pump (again, between tank and pump)
Edward Beggs
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Re: please help troubleshoot!

Post by PlantDrive » Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:42 pm

http://www.uniteddiesel.co.uk/diesel-engine-smoke.php

White smoke can be caused by a number of things, including insufficient fuel supply.
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Re: please help troubleshoot!

Post by CVI » Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:42 pm

White smoke....presence of water on the wvo...maybe??? Black smoke - unburned diesel fuel / rich mixture, ... Blue smoke - burning oil coming in thru turbo leak, valve seals and guides or cylinder and piston ring scoring, ... White smoke - burning engine coolant or water getting into the combustion chambers caused by head gasket failure or cracked cylinder head.

....just a thought. Good luck.

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after oil
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Re: please help troubleshoot!

Post by after oil » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:04 am

okay, now some "big guns" are here for the discussion 8-)

like i said, we tried it with a 3/8 line directly from a jerry can to the heat exchanger with no apparent change.
the fuel, in my estimation, is just about as clean and water free as fuel can be. having settled for over a month and then run through the raw power centrifuge. passes a pan test even BEFORE centrifuging.

so the problem is either an air leak in the heat exchanger or at the inline filter between the HE and the IP (which i think would be apparent by bubbles of air visible in the sight filter)
or the problem is in the IP or injectors. or possibly, according to the chart at http://www.uniteddiesel.co.uk/diesel-engine-smoke.php
low compression, low fuel pressure, insufficient fuel supply (doubtful, i guess) or faulty injectors. now, again to be clear, the problem is ONLY ON WVO. if some of you experts could narrow down that list, based on this fact, it would be most helpful.
thanks!

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Re: please help troubleshoot!

Post by PlantDrive » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:15 am

try removing that electric pump and see what it does.
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