Intercooler, because why not.

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Growlerbearnz
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Re: Intercooler, because why not.

Postby Growlerbearnz » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:08 pm

There can be disadvantages to using an intercooler intended for a petrol engine- there's a great article about it here: http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=Diesel-Intercooling&A=112608

TL;DR: petrol engines are only on boost occasionally, so their intercoolers tend to be good at absorbing bursts of heat but slow to dissipate it afterwards. Diesel engines are on boost all the time, so diesel intercoolers are better at getting rid of the heat constantly.

Fitting the intercooler into the airbox space is clever- nice short pipes to the turbo and inlet! I'd be monitoring the intercooler temperatures though. A motorcycle radiator fan might help keep temperatures down, if there's not enough natural airflow in there.
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Re: Intercooler, because why not.

Postby winelover » Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:04 am

I guess folks who love L300s must think somewhat alike! I had read that as I was head scratching in the beginning, those guys have lots of interesting info that is applicable. I simply happened to have the saab intercooler laying around, and so started playing with positioning. It fit so nicely under the seat that I just went with it. Previously, I had cobbled together a simple water injection system with a 1gph nozzle(62mL/min.) and made a plate where the EGR used to sit on the intake manifold. This actually worked pretty well, as opposed to what some of the other folks on the forum seem to have found, roughly equal to the current intercooler in keeping EGTs down. I used a simple pressure switch to have the shurflo pump I got from a dumpster at an RV repair place to come on at anything above 5psi boost. They, and you also are correct on the heatsink issue, IMO. The 4D56, at least in this application, is on the boost virtually all the time, and I am quite sure the IC get saturated within seconds, it still is more area to shed heat though, and is definitely better than nothing. I am going to use one of these: http://www.amazon.com/Docooler-Temperat ... 7P1BBKCZM8

and fit it to the output of the IC. It already threaded for a common water injection nozzle size (1/8"npt) and I will probably use a 2gph nozzle in it, run about the same way, coming on at 5psi or so. Together along with my geriatric van driving habits, should keep my wee motor happy, and hopefully internally de-carbonized. Time will tell. As you can imagine, airflow through the IC in this position is not great, so I fitted a small yamaha ATV fan off craigs to it, which honestly, seems to make no difference whatsoever. I am careful with my van, and always allow an idle down period before turning it off...always, I have owned a fair number of diesels. One unrelated benefits, both to the IC position, and the motor position in general, is that we use the engine hump with the seats flipped forward as seating when we camp. All that heat soak keeps our asses warm for hours, making for happy wife. I considered trying an air-water IC, but they look sort of like a PITA, although at some point, I still may just to see the difference. Thanks for sharing your experiments on this, there is always something to learn from the fiddling of others!

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ChuckBlack
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Re: Intercooler, because why not.

Postby ChuckBlack » Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:58 am

Great work Growlerbearnz!

I've come about doing something similar with my deli but I ended up completely upgrading the cooling system which did drop from 700F @ 100Kph to low 600F. Complete coolant back flush, new rad, added top of the line ELC and a new fan clutch.
Black smoke is almost not visible under load and the usual blacked puff between gear change, regardless of the smoke. Boost remains the same (up to 9Psi) and i can't really tell about the noise difference as my exhaust comes out the side @ 2.5" out to lunch! But I'm almost temped... 8-)
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Re: Intercooler, because why not.

Postby Gandalf » Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:30 am

Nicely done, Growlerbearnz. I like the temp-controlled fan, definitely helps at low speeds, since the IC isn't facing vertically. And proper clamps.

If I may make a suggestion/note,
Intercoolers aren't really meant to be painted, (my eyes may deceive me from your pics) unless it is with a coating that helps the heat transfer qualities of aluminum or doesn't reduce them much. Of course, it's only the fins that should stay clean, so I doubt much paint made it into or onto the fin surfaces as they pass through the core. Longevity/corrosion is why oem rads/intercoolers are coated... super thin coating though.

Have you (or anyone) monitored IAT's? EGT's are a good overall indicator, but IATs can spike drastically with high boost from turbos working at their limits, and they can also show you recovery off-boost/cruising too.

Another consideration with improved intercooling, sometimes AF ratios can lean up to the point that boost should actually be reduced... essentially then you are at the fuel limits, but can get the same power with less boost due to the intercooling, and keep the turbo in it's sweet spot (hot turbine but decent IAT's). Less spikes, less power drop when you keep it panned for more than 10 seconds...

Good find on that wrecker IC!
Last edited by Gandalf on Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Intercooler, because why not.

Postby takeuchi » Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:43 am

Any ideas on other intercoolers from north american diesels that might work?

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Re: Intercooler, because why not.

Postby Gandalf » Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:32 pm

Essentially, you do not need to restrict to just using intercoolers from diesel cars.
But you do need good intercooler components, placed in ideal locations. Often, this means moving away from oem locations, like in the top of the engine bay above a motor. Ideally, a custom IC is usually best to fit as large of a heat exchanger in the coolest location with the best airflow possible.

Proper intercooling principles, to me, are not heat-sink based at all, but actually shed as much heat as possible as quickly as possible. Essentially, recovery is what is key in my books.This means it does not discriminate between gas/petrol or diesel vehicles.

Some years ago now, I wrote the Guide to A2W intercooling, and at the time it was widely criticized because there were so many myths and misunderstandings about A2W, including that A2W should not be used in racing applications. Well, it took a lot of discussion, testing, and video, but A2W is downright common now in many applications. Still see a lot of misconceptions though.

If anyone is interested, the A2W guide was originally written on the MR2 forum, mr2oc.com, here:
http://www.mr2oc.com/227-3sgte-turbo-fo ... ricks.html

Later I also posted it in an intercooling section on my website here:
http://mk15.ca/MJK_iPage_Website/MKI.5_ ... ojects.htm

Yes, it refers mainly to A2W intercooling, but the contained principles are the same for A2A... placement (which reduces heatsoak and optimizes frontal airflow), as large as can be fitted in that ideal location, as good a quality a core as can be afforded, and smooth rounded large endtanks (again, as can be fitted/afforded).

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Intercooler, because why not.

Postby Growlerbearnz » Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:29 am

Edit: you wrote a reply while I was typing! Feel free to ignore any bits of this reply you've already addressed. I'll go read your latest post now :-)

Gandalf wrote:Intercoolers aren't really meant to be painted... Longevity/corrosion is why oem rads/intercoolers are coated... super thin coating though."


Definitely agreed. This particular one spent a few days in the ocean, and had an allover layer of corrosion (but the price was extremely right. Someday I'll replace it with a brand new one.) The paint's mostly to keep it from turning to powder. I figured that even painted it was still going to be a better intercooler than what I had before (which was nothing).

Interestingly, there is some debate online about how much effect a layer of paint has on a radiator's efficiency, but finding actual evidence is difficult. I've mostly found boy racers being confused about the difference between radiation and conduction, and talking about matte black paint.

Gandalf wrote:Have you (or anyone) monitored IAT's? EGT's are a good overall indicator, but IATs can spike drastically with high boost from turbos working at their limits, and they can also show you recovery off-boost/cruising too.


I've occasionally been curious about what my actual temperatures are, but haven't been sufficiently motivated to add sensors. I have done some non-scientific surveys though: after a long motorway cruise (8-10psi) the pipe going into the intercooler is usually too hot to touch, and the pipe coming out is usually just lovely and warm. The results might be different after towing the caravan up the Bombay Hills (about 10 minutes at 18psi, 70-80kph) but I'm not sure I'd be motivated to change anything even if the intercooler did heat soak- it's still going to be better than without an intercooler, and there's not much room to improve airflow or intercooler size.

Gandalf wrote:Another consideration with improved intercooling, sometimes AF ratios can lean up to the point that boost should actually be reduced... essentially then you are at the fuel limits, but can get the same power with less boost due to the intercooling, and keep the turbo in it's sweet spot (hot turbine but decent IAT's). Less spikes, less power drop when you keep it panned for more than 10 seconds...


What is this "lean AF ratio" of which you speak? It sounds like witchcraft. That's when the black smoke isn't happening, right? Never heard of it. ;-)

But for serious: Interesting. I hadn't considered that, but it makes sense.I tend to drive with just enough throttle to get the job done and if more throttle doesn't do anything then I back off, which might be taking advantage of that effect a little. I imagine to *really* exploit it you'd need some kind of computer-controlled injection and boost control that could monitor AF ratios- like on a diesel engine from this century. I have looked into transplanting a modern direct-injection 4D56, but they have a reputation for being a bit unreliable.
Nothing says "poor workmanship" more than wrinkles in the duct tape.

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Re: Intercooler, because why not.

Postby Growlerbearnz » Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:29 am

Gandalf wrote:Essentially, you do not need to restrict to just using intercoolers from diesel cars.


True enough, but I'd still look at the diesel section of the junkyard first. Factory diesel intercoolers are more likely to be a decent size and better heat exchangers. Factory petrol intercoolers can be a bit small and heavy- probably because they fit easier and still get the job done on an infrequently-boosting petrol engine.
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Re: RE: Re: Intercooler, because why not.

Postby takeuchi » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:34 am

What about something like this from a VW Diesel?

http://www.partsplaceinc.com/products/p ... ?sku=19329

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Re: Intercooler, because why not.

Postby Growlerbearnz » Mon Jul 04, 2016 2:58 pm

takeuchi wrote:What about something like this from a VW Diesel?

http://www.partsplaceinc.com/products/p ... ?sku=19329


I'd look for something from a 3 litre or larger modern diesel. It's just a hunch, but I wonder if a modern VW intercooler (presumably from a 2.0l) would be a bit small.

My reasoning is that VW will have designed their intercooler to have the flow and efficiency that meets their engine's requirements, while being as small and light as possible for packaging reasons. A VW diesel will have a more efficient turbo and can alter injection timing and quantity to compensate for high intake temperatures*, so I wouldn't be surprised if their intercoolers are actually a bit weak. It's just a suspicion though.

*or for emissions testing.

I'm in the fortunate position of living in a country which has had diesel engined vehicles for decades, many of them used Japanese imports. The junkyards are overflowing with options. YMMV.
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Intercooler, because why not.

Postby takeuchi » Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:04 pm

Gandalf wrote:Essentially, you do not need to restrict to just using intercoolers from diesel cars.
But you do need good intercooler components, placed in ideal locations. Often, this means moving away from oem locations, like in the top of the engine bay above a motor. Ideally, a custom IC is usually best to fit as large of a heat exchanger in the coolest location with the best airflow possible.

Proper intercooling principles, to me, are not heat-sink based at all, but actually shed as much heat as possible as quickly as possible. Essentially, recovery is what is key in my books.This means it does not discriminate between gas/petrol or diesel vehicles.

Some years ago now, I wrote the Guide to A2W intercooling, and at the time it was widely criticized because there were so many myths and misunderstandings about A2W, including that A2W should not be used in racing applications. Well, it took a lot of discussion, testing, and video, but A2W is downright common now in many applications. Still see a lot of misconceptions though.

If anyone is interested, the A2W guide was originally written on the MR2 forum, mr2oc.com, here:
http://www.mr2oc.com/227-3sgte-turbo-fo ... ricks.html

Later I also posted it in an intercooling section on my website here:
http://mk15.ca/MJK_iPage_Website/MKI.5_ ... ojects.htm

Yes, it refers mainly to A2W intercooling, but the contained principles are the same for A2A... placement (which reduces heatsoak and optimizes frontal airflow), as large as can be fitted in that ideal location, as good a quality a core as can be afforded, and smooth rounded large endtanks (again, as can be fitted/afforded).


Have you or anyone seen an air to water intercooler installed on an L300? If so, where did they mount it? Seems like it would be an easier piping job?

I've searched and searched but have found nothing :(

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Intercooler, because why not.

Postby speleokip » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:37 pm

A good topic.

Assembling the parts at the moment for a A2W set up. First I have to go to the scrappies to buy a Delica AC radiator and fan set up because I threw mine out when I removed the AC for a water tank (stupid boy).

Then I will put said buy back, back in from whence it came. Then find the impossible 90 degree flange fitting for the intake manifold, fit some tubes and other things, swearing only once and the job should be a goodun.

Once I source components I'll try and get some pics up.

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Intercooler, because why not.

Postby takeuchi » Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:57 am

Growler,

If you were to install an a2w intercooler, where would you put one?

Like this one:
http://www.frozenboost.com/liquid-air-i ... -1034.html

Would there be room right near the engine to spin the turbo a bit and have a short pipe to the intercooler and then another short one back to the inlet?

I assume an intercooler with the ports on the same side would make life easier for piping?

Or would a better spot be near the air filter canister?

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Intercooler, because why not.

Postby Growlerbearnz » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:55 pm

I don't think there's any room in the engine bay- the drivers seat floor pan (where the handbrake is) drops down and gets really close to the engine in front of the turbo, there was barely enough room to run a couple of 2" pipes.

The air filter box is big enough: if you remove the air filter. Which I wouldn't do, the air filter canister does a *lot* of work, with its dirt-collecting swirl chamber and large filter, I think it would be a step backwards to replace it with something more primitive like an exposed filter.

How about under the chassis, between the rear AC and the exhaust pipe? You'd want to add a heat shield to the exhaust pipe, but it's not *too* bad back there, it gets a lot of airflow to keep the exhaust heat away from the A2W. The air pipes to the A2W might fit through the air box.

Or what about in the wheel arch? There's a heap of room in the wheel arch, it's well away from the exhaust, and getting the pipes to it shouldn't be too hard.
Nothing says "poor workmanship" more than wrinkles in the duct tape.

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Intercooler, because why not.

Postby takeuchi » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:23 pm

Excellent, that helps! The turbo outlet/manifold inlet are 2inch? Time to order up the supplies!


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