Intercooler, because why not.

Mitsubishi Delica Camper vans, lift kits & other Delica Accessories!

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Growlerbearnz
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Intercooler, because why not.

Postby Growlerbearnz » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:12 pm

Yobbo wrote:I actually found my intake stub and turbo inlet diameter to be 44/45mm(1.75") rather than 38mm (1.5"). :shock:


Well, crap. The 1.5" reducer elbow I bought fitted straight onto both my original engine (1991 P25W) and the Hyundai replacement (D4BF) without any drama that I can remember. I don't recall if it needed lube when it was new, though it would have had oil in it when I moved it to the new engine. I wonder if your engine is slightly different, or your elbow is a bit smaller? I did buy the cheapest elbow the shop had, so it's possible it had looser tolerances or was a bit stretchier than a decent one.
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Yobbo
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Intercooler, because why not.

Postby Yobbo » Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:41 am

Growlerbearnz wrote:
Yobbo wrote:I actually found my intake stub and turbo inlet diameter to be 44/45mm(1.75") rather than 38mm (1.5"). :shock:


Well, crap. The 1.5" reducer elbow I bought fitted straight onto both my original engine (1991 P25W) and the Hyundai replacement (D4BF) without any drama that I can remember. I don't recall if it needed lube when it was new, though it would have had oil in it when I moved it to the new engine. I wonder if your engine is slightly different, or your elbow is a bit smaller? I did buy the cheapest elbow the shop had, so it's possible it had looser tolerances or was a bit stretchier than a decent one.


My engine is the 4D56T (1991) my van is a P35W though, but it's no biggie, I prefer less of a jump down from 2", my intercooler also has 2.25" pipes, but yes I need to make a shape for the intake flange and take it down to my local sheet metal place and get them to cut a piece for me then to find a suitable 90 degree pipe, and then learn how to weld! :shock:

Yobbo
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Intercooler, because why not.

Postby Yobbo » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:13 am

Hey Growler,

Just a question on clocking the turbo, did you remove the snap ring/circlip entirely or apply pressure with the pliers then rotate?

I've just had the exhaust manifold decoupled and it looks a bit of a pig to get to, while I was in there I changed the oil return gasket too but my god did I struggle with the clip that secures the hose to the pipe! Probably easier with the oil filter off haha!! :-x

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Growlerbearnz
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Intercooler, because why not.

Postby Growlerbearnz » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:01 pm

Oh, you're not going to like this... the compressor housing has a location pin that stops it turning. You have to remove the giant circlip that holds the housing to the backplate (paying attention to which side faces outwards- the circlip has one bevelled edge) and drill a new hole in the housing.

You might be able to remove the locating pin, which would make re-clocking the housing easier in future (it might take a few goes to get the angle right), but I don't know if that would have any consequences.

The whole lot would be a lot easier with the turbo out of the van, but the turbo flange nuts can be a pain. Removing the oil filter would probably help!
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Yobbo
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Intercooler, because why not.

Postby Yobbo » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:59 am

:-) LOL! Sounds fun!! :o

Doesn't sound that bad to be honest, as long as the pin is easily removed, the drilling of the aluminium compressor housing should be fairly straight forward though critical attention and care would be needed.
I assume in this case that to remove the compressor housing, you'd best be pulling it straight off towards you to make sure that you lose the pin...

But yeah, I genuinely don't think I can remove the turbo and exhaust manifold assembly out from either the top or bottom (damn torsion bar!), this would mean getting those nasty looking nuts off that attach the turbine housing to the manifold. Can't even get a socket on those!! :roll:

I do however have a plan which may not involve clocking the turbo at all...
I've ordered some 90 degree 1.75"-2" silicone reducer hoses and intend on making up a straight-out but very short intake stub, it looks tight but going off rough measurements, the flexibility of the hoses should allow for enough wiggle room. Though it may mean trimming them down and I'm certain they would touch but we'll see how it goes!

So I have a 2D design for the flange plate required but my friend in the sheet metal factory has gone AWOL this week.
This design is to the spec of the original intake stub and my idea is to get a 1.75" pipe welded to it maybe only 1"-1.5" long, depending on the thickness of the pipe I go for there will likely be some overhang form the plate's centre hole, but I'll just fill it smooth with some epoxy putty/resin so it doesn't mess with the air flow.
Intake Flange.jpg
Intake Flange.jpg (331.4 KiB) Viewed 97 times

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Growlerbearnz
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Intercooler, because why not.

Postby Growlerbearnz » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:47 pm

Genius! Wish I'd thought of the straight inlet stub. On mine I had to replace the lower mounting bolt with a stud and nut, because the pipe is too close to the hole and you can't get a bolt in there.

Don't forget to put a bead on the end of the intake stub. The intake pipes get oily, and the silicone *will* eventually slip off if there's no bead. Something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Boesch-Built-Aluminum-Silicone-Coupler/dp/B0089E3KWE if you're making it from aluminium.
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Intercooler, because why not.

Postby Yobbo » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:14 am

I've had my fair share of boost hoses popping off on my Volvo haha...
A really good trick is to use hairspray which will form a bond, it's a good point on the swaged lip though as to be honest I've no idea how I'll achieve that with a pipe that potentially has 3mm walls...

I may in that case have to go the aluminium/stainless route and pick up a short eBay stub then work around the inner diameter of that.

Back to ze drawing board!

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Intercooler, because why not.

Postby Growlerbearnz » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:02 pm

Yobbo wrote: I've no idea how I'll achieve that with a pipe that potentially has 3mm walls...


I made the dodgy home-made swaging tool with a vise-grip and an exhaust clamp like so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAXSwmsvqUQ, though my results were a LOT tidier than the mess in the video.

3mm steel sounds like overkill, even 3mm aluminium is pretty hefty. I would think 2mm aluminium should do, or 1mm steel? ...or whatever wall thickness your 1.75" pipe comes in.
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Yobbo
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Intercooler, because why not.

Postby Yobbo » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:35 am

Looks like the intercooler project is slowing down due to funds being piled into getting welding gear.

Nonetheless, the over-pressure relief valve, do you know at what psi value it goes off at?
Because I'm intent on running the standard turbo which is quite new, I've seen you say in another thread that it'll be good to run at 14psi but have a feeling that this relief valve thing will not allow me to obtain that level of boost unless I blank it like you did.

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Postby Growlerbearnz » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:00 pm

The relief valve originally vents at 12psi, but as they get older and weaker they vent earlier. Generally if you want to go above 10psi you need to remove or modify the valve.

Its function is to prevent excessive boost getting to the engine for long periods of time if the wastegate should stick closed. Excessive boost (20psi or more), combined with hot and high-load running conditions, could advance the ignition point enough that it blows a hole in a piston. (Modern electronically-injected engines can compensate for high temperatures and load, but our mechanical injection is way too dumb for that).

If you have a boost gauge and you look at it occasionally, you should be fine without the valve.

The standard turbo will do 14psi all day long without worry. Up to 3500rpm you can go to 17psi and still be within its operating range, but the efficiency drops off, and you're playing close to its upper limit.
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Intercooler, because why not.

Postby Yobbo » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:47 am

Growlerbearnz wrote:The relief valve originally vents at 12psi, but as they get older and weaker they vent earlier. Generally if you want to go above 10psi you need to remove or modify the valve.

Its function is to prevent excessive boost getting to the engine for long periods of time if the wastegate should stick closed. Excessive boost (20psi or more), combined with hot and high-load running conditions, could advance the ignition point enough that it blows a hole in a piston. (Modern electronically-injected engines can compensate for high temperatures and load, but our mechanical injection is way too dumb for that).

If you have a boost gauge and you look at it occasionally, you should be fine without the valve.

The standard turbo will do 14psi all day long without worry. Up to 3500rpm you can go to 17psi and still be within its operating range, but the efficiency drops off, and you're playing close to its upper limit.


Thanks for that, when I had the manifold off I put it in a vice and fortunately found the gigantic spanner required to get it loose, took some penetrating oil and taps on the spanner with a hammer, so yes quite tight indeed!

So just to confirm, without an intercooler, the standard turbo will be fine at that level of boost?
I know you have to adjust fuelling so it doesn't end up too lean but it seems the previous owner has done as the 2.5" side exit exhaust chucks out smoke when revving in park hahaha... Quite aware our vans are too retarded to retard the timing hahaha! :mrgreen:

I've now fitted my EGT probe but need to wire it all up and presumably it'll be fine to install a T for the boost gauge in line with one of the small boost hoses that goes to the compressor housing?

Sorry for the noob questions, it's really my first foray into old school tuning and want to get it right - In regards to tuning I can't quite justify the outlay for a wideband AFR at the moment but have spotted cheap probes and gauges that will work in the normative ratios though don't know if it'll be good enough (see here - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-52MM-20-LE ... Swb39bHkJe).

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Intercooler, because why not.

Postby Growlerbearnz » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:32 pm

Yobbo wrote:So just to confirm, without an intercooler, the standard turbo will be fine at that level of boost?
I know you have to adjust fuelling so it doesn't end up too lean


The standard turbo is fine without an intercooler (up to 14psi, with occasional excursions to 17 absolute maximum)- the engine, on the other hand, won't appreciate 17 un-cooled psi. I'd stick to 12-14psi without an intercooler.

Diesels don't care about lean mixtures, in fact a lean mixture will keep your EGTs down. Rich mixtures (below 16:1) kill diesels.

If it smokes when you stomp the accelerator, IE before the turbo spools up, try winding the boost compensator star wheel *up* (higher/more pressure on the spring) one turn and see what happens. Check out this thread: viewtopic.php?f=94&t=18908&start=15 (it's specifically for tuning a Hyundai engine when installed in a Delica, but if you ignore the bit about removing adjusters and aligning the accelerator lever, it's a generic how-to-tune-a-4D56 guide.)


Yobbo wrote:In regards to tuning I can't quite justify the outlay for a wideband AFR at the moment but have spotted cheap probes and gauges that will work in the normative ratios though don't know if it'll be good enough.


Don't bother. The AFR ratio for a well-tuned diesel is 18:1 up to 99:1. A narrowband sensor (or a wideband that doesn't have a diesel mode) is useless. You can get 90% of the way there by watching your smoke and EGTs. The thread above has a description of what to adjust to get the EGTs the way you like them.
Nothing says "poor workmanship" more than wrinkles in the duct tape.


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